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Overwatch and Scouts
yme-loc
 Post subject: Overwatch and Scouts
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:25 pm 
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So read Neals Wiki of rule changes.

Now I think some of these changes are good (most obviously the stalled assault)

Others really arn't necessary - two possible changes to hit allocation in assaults, neither agreed upon - why not stick with those in the book which work just fine?

Or the redefinition of overwatch so it can ignore a core game principal that all formations must take an action - not really a big deal - but under such circumstances its always better to reinforce the book rules as printed.

But its two very simple and apparently innocuous changes to the rules that worry me the most.

-1 Overwatch
First the -1 to hit a formation on overwatch, this really leads to and rewards defensive play - it also diminishes the role of terrain on the game - neither a good outcome in my opinion.

Its such an advantage that I will almost certainly be placing formations on overwatch even if they have no guns just so I get my mobile wood.

Its especially great for big formations that sometimes cant use cover well except by bunching up and becoming very good targets for artillery (especially disrupt) now I just move to an optimum location and formation spread and go on overwatch.

Scout intermingling

This one has been bandied about for awhile and if people really want to use scouts like napoleonic era skirmishers then it seems a great idea for a house rule.

But in the strict trournament environemt it really is very necessary (quite apart from the fact its actually a great simple rule - that forces people to use scouts as modern era scouts, not skirmishers)

The proposed fix to allow scouts to only be intermingled at 5cm leads to a number of problems and in its current format neads significant rewritting just to be workable (obvious questions are what happens when both ZOC's are contacted simultaneously and what happens when two units effectively remove a units ZOC the dynamics of which ZOC's are entered first will change).

Thats before we even consider the nasty static defensive posibilities offered by long lines of scouts each placed 20cm apart and then shifted 6cm from each other to give the following line.

SA-SB-SC-SA-SB-SC-SA-SB-SC-SA etc




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Chroma
 Post subject: Overwatch and Scouts
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:38 pm 
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(yme-loc @ Oct. 22 2007,17:25)
QUOTE
-1 Overwatch
First the -1 to hit a formation on overwatch, this really leads to and rewards defensive play - it also diminishes the role of terrain on the game - neither a good outcome in my opinion.

That -1 to hit only applies to infantry that go on overwatch, and has been an implied rule from the beginning, since infantry has always gotten a cover save for going on overwatch, it just wasn't spelled out, i.e., "Having a 'cover save' means you're in cover, units in cover are at -1 to hit"

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yme-loc
 Post subject: Overwatch and Scouts
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:49 pm 
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(Chroma @ Oct. 22 2007,17:38)
QUOTE

(yme-loc @ Oct. 22 2007,17:25)
QUOTE
-1 Overwatch
First the -1 to hit a formation on overwatch, this really leads to and rewards defensive play - it also diminishes the role of terrain on the game - neither a good outcome in my opinion.

That -1 to hit only applies to infantry that go on overwatch, and has been an implied rule from the beginning, since infantry has always gotten a cover save for going on overwatch, it just wasn't spelled out, i.e., "Having a 'cover save' means you're in cover, units in cover are at -1 to hit"

I was aware it only applied to infantry and actually a strict reading of the rather confused -1 to hit rules shows they have nothing to do with cover saves or cover but are given as a result of a model being slightly obscured from view - something that is admittedly taken to occur in virtually all situations when a unit is in cover.

However applying the -1 to hit even if it was the original intention of the rule is certinly not something I have ever encountered in a tournament game and would certainly hope not to.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Overwatch and Scouts
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:57 pm 
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I believe it was the original intention; You get a cover save, therefore you must be in cover, ergo -1 to hit.

Fluffwise, the troops just spent 15 minutes digging foxholes, granting them a cover save and the element of surprise when an enemy comes blundering by.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Overwatch and Scouts
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:02 pm 
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(yme-loc @ Oct. 22 2007,17:49)
QUOTE
I was aware it only applied to infantry and actually a strict reading of the rather confused -1 to hit rules shows they have nothing to do with cover saves or cover but are given as a result of a model being slightly obscured from view - something that is admittedly taken to occur in virtually all situations when a unit is in cover.

It's referred to more in the section following 1.8.2 Cover to Hit Modifiers.

1.8.3 Infantry Cover Saves
Certain terrain is noted as giving infantry a cover save. While in such terrain, the infantry receive the cover save listed on the Terrain table in addition to the -1 to hit modifier for being in cover. The cover save can be used instead of their normal armour save whenever they have to take an armour save. Note that they can use one or the other of these saves against a hit, not both.

Since Open Ground is a terrain type that grants a cover save (in a specific instance) it gives that -1 to hit as well... since "in real life" most armies wouldn't be fighting on a flat table surface... well, it might happen in the Eye of Terror on occasion...  :D

Why do you see this as so troublesome yme-loc?  Most infantry, other than Tau, don't have that great of range or volume of firepower and a static defense, unless garrisoned forward, isn't going to be doing much to snag objectives.  If someone wants to play "defensively" why shouldn't they be allowed to?

And overwatch fire is only triggered at the end of an opponent's move... I've had canny opponents circle around overwatching formations by jumping from cover to cover, always ending out of line of sight... it certainly doesn't seem like a "game-breaker" tactic to me.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Overwatch and Scouts
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:04 pm 
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For the record I hate it too - it is one of those rulings I have just simply learned to live with. ?I argued with Neal about this about two years ago and to this day the rule doesn't sit well with me. ?Fortunately I just don't see it come up all that often to make a big deal over it.




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yme-loc
 Post subject: Overwatch and Scouts
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:09 pm 
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(Chroma @ Oct. 22 2007,18:02)
QUOTE

(yme-loc @ Oct. 22 2007,17:49)
QUOTE
I was aware it only applied to infantry and actually a strict reading of the rather confused -1 to hit rules shows they have nothing to do with cover saves or cover but are given as a result of a model being slightly obscured from view - something that is admittedly taken to occur in virtually all situations when a unit is in cover.

It's referred to more in the section following 1.8.2 Cover to Hit Modifiers.

1.8.3 Infantry Cover Saves
Certain terrain is noted as giving infantry a cover save. While in such terrain, the infantry receive the cover save listed on the Terrain table in addition to the -1 to hit modifier for being in cover. The cover save can be used instead of their normal armour save whenever they have to take an armour save. Note that they can use one or the other of these saves against a hit, not both.

Since Open Ground is a terrain type that grants a cover save (in a specific instance) it gives that -1 to hit as well... since "in real life" most armies wouldn't be fighting on a flat table surface... well, it might happen in the Eye of Terror on occasion... ?:D

Why do you see this as so troublesome yme-loc? ?Most infantry, other than Tau, don't have that great of range or volume of firepower and a static defense, unless garrisoned forward, isn't going to be doing much to snag objectives. ?If someone wants to play "defensively" why shouldn't they be allowed to?

And overwatch fire is only triggered at the end of an opponent's move... I've had canny opponents circle around overwatching formations by jumping from cover to cover, always ending out of line of sight... it certainly doesn't seem like a "game-breaker" tactic to me.

Dont think its a game breaker tactic just something that promotes static defensive play in a game that is already a little easy to draw if you deliberately play defensively. It also reduces the reason for using actual terrain.

Also the ability of troops to ignore my overwatch fire is fairly meaningless if I have garrisoned a big ork warband on an objective gone on overwatch and sat there I dont actually want to come off overwatch I want the -1, I would probably only use my overwatch fire when directly assaulted.

As I said I would even use overwatch on formations with no guns just to get the -1.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Overwatch and Scouts
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:14 pm 
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As I said I would even use overwatch on formations with no guns just to get the -1.


I think I'd be happy to play against an army with no guns that doesn't want to move into Engagement range! :D

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Chroma
 Post subject: Overwatch and Scouts
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:18 pm 
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(Rug @ Oct. 22 2007,19:14)
QUOTE
We've always played with a cover save (due to being hard to spot when staitionary etc).... -1 to hit too would make this order far too good!

We've played with that -1 to hit on overwatch for a long time and it certainly hasn't made overwatch an overwhelming order choice. ?

Most infantry that isn't getting stuck in still wants to get into building/ruins for that 4+ save.

We imagined the troopers on overwatch hugging the dirt and peeking out of gullies and folds in the earth, not necessarily digging-in completely.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Overwatch and Scouts
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:21 pm 
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Foxhole, shallow pit, same difference. :)

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Overwatch and Scouts
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:17 pm 
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Cover mod - From discussions when the question was first raised, it seems many people were already interpretting it this way.  The infantry-OW-objective squat wasn't reported as a problem by anyone who had been using it.

Scouts - The 10cm intermingling isn't needed. None of the theoretically freaky ZoC issues has ever been reported in an actual game.  They tend to rely on highly specific unit placement that simply won't hold up during play.


"two possible changes to hit allocation in assaults" - I'm not sure what you mean by this one.  I thought it was clear that the experimental rules in the vault have been roundly rejected.  The hit allocation rules weren't changed as much as simply clarified.


"Or the redefinition of overwatch so it can ignore a core game principal that all formations must take an action" - The formations still "take an action" when they announce they are staying on OW.  They just don't make an activation roll if they choose that particular action.  I admit this can create some tactics around stalling activations.


Do you mind trying to articulate your concerns in more detail?  Even something that uses multiple issues you list in combo, like garrisoning a couple of IG Stormtrooper formations around an objective on OW with interlocking ZoC exploits, doesn't seem like it would be very effective.  The countering tactics seem multiple and obvious to me.

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Ginger
 Post subject: Overwatch and Scouts
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:25 am 
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Neal, I thought it was agreed in this SG thread, that 1.6.1 requires all formations to attempt to take an action. Consequently a formation on OW from the previous turn must either use it in the current turn, or take an action (which could be OW).

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Overwatch and Scouts
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:41 am 
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I would prefer that keeping OW required an activation roll too.

After all, would Orks be inclined to stay on Overwatch?

No, because they wants to get choppin' dun't they!

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