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Tournament List Mods
Ginger
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 3:18 am 
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At the risk of being a 'party-pooper' the issue is not whether we can create a "Brass Legion" or "Pink fluffy Marine" list. The issue is that "average Joe" will not have heard of these creations because he will only have visited the 'official' GW site, and only seen those lists on it. So if he turns up to a tournament he will be coming with a mindset and experience that is predicated on the GW mentality and game.

While Tournament organisers can allow or disallow particular lists, doing this can put "Average Joe" at a disadvantage because he will not know the strengths and weaknesses of the respective armies, how the 'new' units work or the most appropriate strategies to employ. As an extreme example, it is a bit like me asking a person who is familiar with Western Chess to play Shogi (Japanese chess) - most of the pieces are familiar, but there are both new ones, and some important variations in the rules. More importantly, none of the traditional opening moves and gambits are valid - it is essentially a different game.

I believe it is precisely this "unfamiliarity" that JJ (and Matt O) want to avoid through only using the 'official' rules and army lists in tournaments. The implication of this approach is that tournament should only contain familiar stuff (rules lists etc) to ensure that people start on as even footing as possible in order to make the experience as enjoyable as possible. In turn IMNSHO, this implies that we need to have just two sites or repositories for the rules and army lists etc
- The 'Official' one containing the 'official' rules and lists, which most organisers will use for their tournaments and events.
- The "experimental' one where fan based lists are held and developed, and just possibly where any amendments for the "official" lists are honed.

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Steve54
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 7:18 am 
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I would have absolutely zero interest in making 'brass legion' etc. The existing epic lists are very well balanced - this is supported by tournament results (the assertion that all chaos lists looks the same is also false - they suffer no more in that regard than the majority of other lists) and there is just no need for endless mock-variants to satisfy peoples need to tinker or fixed supposed problems.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 10:45 am 
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(Steve54 @ May 30 2008,07:18)
QUOTE
I would have absolutely zero interest in making 'brass legion' etc. The existing epic lists are very well balanced - this is supported by tournament results (the assertion that all chaos lists looks the same is also false - they suffer no more in that regard than the majority of other lists) and there is just no need for endless mock-variants to satisfy peoples need to tinker or fixed supposed problems.

How would you like it if everyone started taking (at least what I think is) the most powerful no brainer list? If you are about in London at some point I can demo it to you.

And as for a million and one lists, you aren't a fan of DBM are you :)

I see nothing wrong with a lot of different lists, how many for instance has 40k or fantasy got (to stay within GW), or teams in Blood Bowl?

Also changes are not just about making lists balanced, but also expanding the range of viable (i.e. competitive) tourny combos with a certain list.

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alansa
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 10:56 am 
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(Steve54 @ May 30 2008,07:18)
QUOTE
I would have absolutely zero interest in making 'brass legion' etc. The existing epic lists are very well balanced - this is supported by tournament results (the assertion that all chaos lists looks the same is also false - they suffer no more in that regard than the majority of other lists) and there is just no need for endless mock-variants to satisfy peoples need to tinker or fixed supposed problems.

Most All of the armies have their obvious little problems and should be fixed if possible. This is not an invitation to constantly meddle though, rather a 1 time fix for hald a decade or more.

I'm not going to say this list or that is unbalanced. Regardless there are issues.

1 some units are deeply unpopular (Marine armour for example)
2 some units are silly but have easy fixes (Deathstrikes)

I believe that the guys here have done a good job of finding suitable fixes and nealhunt has successfully pestered them to trim and prune to the essentials.

These could easily be implemented without issue by GW if they had the will. And improve things.

You think Steve, that the fixes are not worth bothering with, and I would in fact agree with you, if they where not done 'officially'

----

E&C your idea of variant lists on the surface seems to be highly attractive and sensible, but Ginger is right about the problems of confusion and mix up. I've said this before but my belief is that organisers can play Epic Armageddon OR some other game ('call it Net Epic Armageddon') but not some mix with bits from some obscure site.

Net EA can say "use the rules from the official GW site, but with these ammendments here, Brass Legion instead of Steel Legion etc etc"

But GW EA cannot say "use the rules here plus some files over there"

I suspect that there will be no Net EA tournaments in the UK because, as people like steve and ginger seem to feel, the benifits do not counter the issues of confusion caused. However, if important missing lists, such as Tau, AMTL and nids are made at least "Net offical", then that attitude might change. The benfits might be considered sufficient to allow it.

The tournament mods that neal has instituted where intented to be simple additional adjustments that organisers put in their tournament packs. They where kept simple to keep confusion down. They are so simple that even GW could implement them. - thus there would be no need for additional torunament rules. Everything, it seems to me, is now in place to achieve this. The only thing missing is Jervis willingness - or our willingness to badger Jervis

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 11:19 am 
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I see nothing wrong with a lot of different lists


Neither does Jervis (Who states as much in the Q&A in the Epic rulebook).

Neither does Matt O (Who wants to bring in lots of new lists into his tourneys).

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Ginger
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 3:36 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ May 30 2008,11:19)
QUOTE
I see nothing wrong with a lot of different lists


Neither does Jervis (Who states as much in the Q&A in the Epic rulebook).

Neither does Matt O (Who wants to bring in lots of new lists into his tourneys).

As I understood it, JJ had no problem with fan based lists for other purposes (campaigns, storyline creation, experimental fun etc) indeed it is positively encouraged as you note. However, I do not think he extended that to Tournament lists. As I understood it, one of his main concerns was actually that the 'official' lists remain pretty much set in stone precisely to ensure that newcommers or those with a resurgence of interest should not find their models or tactics out of place in a room full of grizzled tournament veterans (Ok, I am exagerating somewhat to make the point)

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alansa
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 3:44 pm 
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(Ginger @ May 30 2008,15:36)
QUOTE

(Evil and Chaos @ May 30 2008,11:19)
QUOTE
I see nothing wrong with a lot of different lists


Neither does Jervis (Who states as much in the Q&A in the Epic rulebook).

Neither does Matt O (Who wants to bring in lots of new lists into his tourneys).

As I understood it, JJ had no problem with fan based lists for other purposes (campaigns, storyline creation, experimental fun etc) indeed it is positively encouraged as you note. However, I do not think he extended that to Tournament lists. As I understood it, one of his main concerns was actually that the 'official' lists remain pretty much set in stone precisely to ensure that newcommers or those with a resurgence of interest should not find their models or tactics out of place in a room full of grizzled tournament veterans (Ok, I am exagerating somewhat to make the point)

Even for the 'official' game he think he was ok with lots of lists. but he didn't want serious meddling with published list.
But yeah, If you create a list 'b' with the intention fixing problems with official list 'a' and then say we're dropping list 'a' in favour of 'b' then all your doing is semantic fraud - you're really changing a.

-----

It must be said though - 40k and Warhammer tournament players are not treated by Jervis with the  same 'consideration', what with their lists changing every now and then  :p




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semajnollissor
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 4:12 pm 
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Well, I hesitate to mention this, since I'm extremely guilty too, but we've really gone off-topic here...

Whether or not person X wants to allow rule set Y at location Z is not pertinent to this discussion. The thread topic is: Tournament List Mods, May's NetEA project. There it is - NetEA. That what we're talking about here.

Obviously, I contributed to the tangential swerve this thread has taken, but maybe we can get back to it. I guess we don't want any of the changes that differentiate NetEA from GW-EA to aggrevate more people into making their own variant of the game, but noone is going to be 100% happy with the finished product anyway, since it's a matter of compromise.

If you want to play straight rulebook + official mods as posted on a GW site, that's fine. But if you are going to run a tourney that uses GW official + this handful of house rules, that's really no different than what we're talking about here. It's just that in the case of NetEA, it'll be far easier to find the lists and rule is one place (hopefully), as well as suggested tactics and useful army list compositions.

Future armylists (like tyranids, AMTL, etc.) should work fine in both systems (since it's really not two systems, just one set of rules with 2 different sets of armylists) with no modifications needed, so that shouldn't be a problem.

So... what army lists still need suggested mods - on this, the last weekday of May?
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nealhunt
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 4:21 pm 
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Okay, guys, It's May 30.  Time to wrap up.

Give your "best and final" bare-bones, minimalist tournament modifications.  I'll put them in a single document and get them to CS for posting.

Hena - Codex SM and White Scars
The Real Chris - Steel Legion IG and Siege IG
nealhunt - Ork
TinyTim - Speed Freek and Feral Ork
Chroma - Eldar
Lord I - Black Legion
Steve 54 - Lost and Damned

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Orks
Supastompa - 275 points
Stompas - add Big/Uge formations for 400/575




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Steve54
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 4:21 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ May 30 2008,10:45)
QUOTE
How would you like it if everyone started taking (at least what I think is) the most powerful no brainer list? If you are about in London at some point I can demo it to you.

And as for a million and one lists, you aren't a fan of DBM are you :)

I see nothing wrong with a lot of different lists, how many for instance has 40k or fantasy got (to stay within GW), or teams in Blood Bowl?

Also changes are not just about making lists balanced, but also expanding the range of viable (i.e. competitive) tourny combos with a certain list.

If thats the BL list you've put up several times I would have no problem with somebody bringing that list - I've played with it/and aginst it several times and I've not seen it work.

I would love to see more armylists at tourneys - tau. nids, eldar craftworlds, other marine chapters etc but not lists that have just been formulated as people don't like an existing list.




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Steve54
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 4:24 pm 
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Lost and the Damned

Daemon Prince - loses TK from statline

Greater Daemon - reduced to 7 summonig points

Marauders - go to 3BP 250pts (to mirror IG list)

Rrider change removed to match IG




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 4:33 pm 
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But yeah, If you create a list 'b' with the intention fixing problems with official list 'a' and then say we're dropping list 'a' in favour of 'b' then all your doing is semantic fraud - you're really changing a.


Nope, list A would of course remain legal for noobs to use... but after one tourney they'd find out about list B, and probably move to that.

Heck, they might even keep playing list A, since that one has teh uber Roughriders. :D

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alansa
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 4:44 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ May 30 2008,16:33)
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But yeah, If you create a list 'b' with the intention fixing problems with official list 'a' and then say we're dropping list 'a' in favour of 'b' then all your doing is semantic fraud - you're really changing a.


Nope, list A would of course remain legal for noobs to use... but after one tourney they'd find out about list B, and probably move to that.

Heck, they might even keep playing list A, since that one has teh uber Roughriders. :D

That's good. Still if b arose as a fix to list a, which was considered to be too powerful, then noob's and vets alike can still use the overpowerd a.

The only thing to do then would be to call a spade a spade and fix 'a'. That would require Jervis' cooperation.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 4:47 pm 
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If a list is so powerful as to be causing major problems, I believe that Jervis has said he'll consider changing it, so overpowered 'A' lists aren't going to be a problem IMHO.




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Steve54
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 4:51 pm 
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But there aren't any lists that are overpowered to that extent.

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