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Alternate Fearless Rule Proposal
BlackLegion
 Post subject: Alternate Fearless Rule Proposal
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 12:42 am 
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a) because of this the get an armour save in my proposal. Being outnumbered now doesn't correspond to autokills but only to autowounds which can be saved (this, too, happens in Wh40k).

b) Hmmm point taken. But will a  Squad of blood crazed Khorne Berzerkers waste time in looking for cover if they can storm over open ground to slaughter their victims?

What was Stubborn again?

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zombocom
 Post subject: Alternate Fearless Rule Proposal
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 12:48 am 
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Why exactly does the epic version of fearless have to exactly duplicate the 40k version? The result is essentially the same.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Alternate Fearless Rule Proposal
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 1:01 am 
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I don't really see the need to modify the rule... this proposal just comes as a way to try and tone down Obliterators, right?

Why not just tone down Obliterators, instead of proposing a fairly hefty change to the core rules. :)

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Alternate Fearless Rule Proposal
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 1:02 am 
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No. The result should be different.

Here you have determined calm individuals who know when a fight is a lost cause and will retreat in good order. This is the current Fearless rule in Epic.

And there you have a bunch of blood crazed or highly fanatic troops who do not care about their own well being as long as they can kick some butt. This is the Wh40k Fearless rule whic deserves its own representation in Epic.




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zombocom
 Post subject: Alternate Fearless Rule Proposal
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 1:07 am 
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I disagree. The 40k fearless rule is designed to be a simple as possible for a simple game system. "No leadership tests ever.". That's a 40k scale idea of fearless, but over the scale of an epic sized game formations will react differently.

Remember, a game of 40k is an epic assault. How fearless works in an Epic assault should be equivilent to how it works in 40k, but that doesn't mean it has to be the same outside of an assault.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Alternate Fearless Rule Proposal
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 1:18 am 
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Then i should scrap the surpression part of my proposal if you think that Fearless units should behave as any other unit outside of assaults?

@E&C: Hey it cam up AGAIN during the Obliterator discussion but bugged me for along time. All the Cult Marines, Deathwing etc are the caus of this bugging me.

In Wh40k Fearless has it's pros and cons. In Epic it has only benefits.


With the old Epic40.000 ability "Frenzy" (don't know if this is caled the same in the english book) this was taken into account. Thex had two dice to hit (instead of one) in closecombat but the formation had to win the assault or all "Frenzy" units where destroyed because they would refuse to retreat.




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zombocom
 Post subject: Alternate Fearless Rule Proposal
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 1:30 am 
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Remember, being broken in Epic is quite different to being broken in 40k. In epic it is probably better described as "disorganised" or "uncoordinated".

Being broken in Epic represents the lines of command being broken, squads becoming spread out and orders being miscommunicated. The formation is still able to achieve basic goals, such as moving to their objective, but little else.

Being broken in 40k represents a terrified unit running for the hills. In Epic this type of "broken" is represented by removing the unit entirely due to hackdown hits or blast markers when broken. Units that are "40k broken" in Epic scale will have no further effect on the battle so are removed.

Fearless units can be "Epic broken", but cannot be "40k broken". The current fearless rules already allow this. The formation can "epic break", but units won't run for the hills due to hackdowns or blast markers when broken.

In other words, to me Epic's "fearless" rule already covers the 40k version quite well, just at a different level of abstraction and also covering more overall battlefield confusion, to which they aren't (and shouldn't be) immune.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Alternate Fearless Rule Proposal
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 1:42 am 
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I disagree. In Wh40k being broken represents a kind of organised retreat, Remember that withdrawing units can still shoot!

This is in Epic the withdrawing move after a lost assault.

Removed units in Epic due to being broken and receiving further Blastmarkers would be represent in Wh40k broken units with under 25% of their starting strength. This units won't be able to rally.

To me the only distraction for 40k-Fearless unis in Epic would be problems with communications which would result in disorder.

So even if 40k-Fearless units can Epic-break (collect Blastmarkers due to shooting) they wouldn't run away from a lost assault. Instead they would fight to the death or win. They could Epic-break after they have defeated their opponents in the assault.

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zombocom
 Post subject: Alternate Fearless Rule Proposal
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 1:45 am 
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So what? As I said, the 40k mechanic is frankly simplistic and daft, and if represented directly in epic would be extremely unballancing. I cannot begin to understand why every rule must be represented exactly as it is in 40k.

Epic is a better game than 40k, so why are we so hung up on matching to its rules, even the silly ones?

EDIT:

Once again, remember that breaking from an epic assault is not the same as breaking from a 40k assault. Breaking from a 40k assault represents running for your life from the enemy trying to hack your head off in close combat. Breaking from an epic assault represents a tactical withdrawal from a lost battle, like a general in a 40k campaign making a decision to leave a battle he is losing to save his troops.

Epic assault = 40k game.

EDIT 2:

Epic isn't about representing a game of 40k in 6mm, it's about representing a battle in the 40k universe in 6mm.

They're not the same thing.




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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Alternate Fearless Rule Proposal
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 2:03 am 
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Wh40k rules aren't essentially daft. They work on a smaller tactical level than Epic rules.

re edit: Yes but units in CC (= base contact) have a harder time to tactically withdraw than units which are only in firefight range.

Ok Wh40k rule aside. Look at the various Cult Chaos Space Marines which are known to be immune to psychology because of various reasons:

Khorne Berzerkers: Perhabs they MIGHT use cover to reach a better position to assault. But once in closecombat you have to kill them all or suffer defeat. Because Khornes doesn't care from whense the blood flowes. Berzerkers will glady sacrifice their own life it it means that it is sacrificed in combat.

Thousand Sons: Well they are automatons. A Sorcerer has to tell them that they have to get in cover or they will walk carelessly in a hail of fire. Once in closecombat they will defent themselfe with the goal to kill their opponent but they dom't care about the outcome of the battle and will fight as long as they can. That means until they are destroyed or there are no enemys left.

Plague Marines: Well these guys have forgotten the meaning of fear. They hardly feel anything even if an arm or leg is shot of. But they will make tatactical withdrwa if they see that a battle can't be won to fight another day.

Noise Marines: They don't fear death. It is just another new joyful sensation. They could be so "in the heat" of battle oh yes cloesecombat is so much more intense than just shooting from afar) that they just forget the danger they are in. This can lead to being overun and shot/hacked to death.


So what do we have? Plague Marines deserve the current Epic-Fearless rules.
But the other three? I think they deserve something different.




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zombocom
 Post subject: Alternate Fearless Rule Proposal
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 2:13 am 
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They really don't. That level of detail is fine for a game of 40k, or more likely for a game of Inquisitor, but one of the things about a 6mm scale game is that a level of abstraction is required. The less special rules the better.

That's why Autocannons and Missile Launchers are exactly the same.
That's why Dark Reapers don't have 5x shots.
That's why each base of infantry doesn't have 5 "wounds"

That's why we have one rule to represent the various causes of psychological immunity.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Alternate Fearless Rule Proposal
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 11:26 am 
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I think it's worth remembering that when Epic was being playtested, the rule that ended up being called Fearless was instead called Immune to Panic.

It represents a subtly different thing to 40k's Fearless rule.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Alternate Fearless Rule Proposal
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 1:52 pm 
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The Fearless rule works fine.  The only real problem, imho, was the withdraw-assault and that's fixed.  Anything else can be dealt with on the army list level.

The morale systems in 40K and Epic are totally different.  Comparing the mechanics is pointless beyond the most general considerations.  In the case of 40K Fearless, ALL of its effects are basically tied up in the Epic CC value.  Everything it does in 40K is "below the radar" in Epic.

Whether it's because they are insensate, berzerk, mindless, or whatever other variant description is irrelevant.  Fearless in epic is just shorthand for "extremely resistant to negative psychological effects during extended battles."

The goal is also not to replicate the nitty gritty of each unit's particular brand of an ability.  A new rule or modification is only needed if it gives a noticeably different effect in actual game play.  If it does not accomplish that, it just slows play without adding anything.  Fearless A and Fearless B and Fearless C might be satisfying on paper, but the play is the important thing.  Paper feel is of very minor importance.  Game play trumps all.  And in game play, Fearless A, B, and C is bad.




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Irondeath
 Post subject: Alternate Fearless Rule Proposal
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 4:30 pm 
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(nealhunt @ May 30 2008,14:52)
QUOTE
*snip*

The goal is also not to replicate the nitty gritty of each unit's particular brand of an ability. ?A new rule or modification is only needed if it gives a noticeably different effect in actual game play. ?If it does not accomplish that, it just slows play without adding anything. ?Fearless A and Fearless B and Fearless C might be satisfying on paper, but the play is the important thing. ?Paper feel is of very minor importance. ?Game play trumps all. ?And in game play, Fearless A, B, and C is bad.

Exactly.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Alternate Fearless Rule Proposal
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 8:57 pm 
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I personally need only Fearless-A and Fearless-B
The Calm-Fearless for Commissars, Deathwing, etc as the current rules are.
And the Mindless-Fearless for Khorne Berzerkers, Thousand Sons, etc which need something different.

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