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UK tournament scene
yme-loc
 Post subject: UK tournament scene
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 5:49 pm 
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(Hena @ May 28 2008,11:17)
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Attempt to not include discussions into the tournament mods thread.


(Evil and Chaos @ May 27 2008,17:21)
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I had a talk with Matt Otter at the weekend (He's the main UK tournaments organiser).

He'd far rather that any list mods were done via points values, rather than stat changes.

I don't think he'll adopt any change list that doesn't take this mostly into account.

Worth considering, I thought.

What I do consider interesting is that it's completely opposite of what JJ seemed to implement. Eg. no point changes, but unit changes (eldar units). IMO both extremes are not good, but something in between.

Matt Otter then isn't worried that peoples lists are going to be screwed if point costs only would be implemented? I think that UK tournament goers just need to start pushing him on this matter if the changes are wanted in UK as well ... Or is UK interested in doing it's own version of everything like the french?

Thats Jervis's recent interpretation based mostly I suspect on the fact he doesnt really have the time or resources available to try and go through loads of point and stat changes - hence no official intention to take onboard any other changes (constructive or not).

In terms of Matt and the UK tourni scene, most tourni players follow the boards and see ideas discussed here and when/if Matt does decide to apply changes (at least to tournaments he runs) I am sure there will be only very minor changes which will probably be very similar/the same as here.

My current problem with this whole process is I find it all a bit fragmented on these boards (there are so many categories), there is also not enough ruthlessness if the idea is really to capture a concensus - you need to start with an absolute minimum of changes for now. Then maybe at a later date look at lists in more detail.

For instance siegemasters, all of chris's proposals are resonable but balance can be achieved by only a single change

Infantry company - 175pts

Everything else in terms of tourni balance is not needed and confuses us tourni types - making us go away and mutter in dark corners about meddlers.

Chaos Black Legion

Again too many changes.

Ferals - 325pts (mostly because of barrage table change)
Decimator - 250pts
Obliterators - 85 points each (in most lists I would bemoan the odd points value, but in chaos there are already enough that it doesnt matter).

Eldar

Wraithguard and Wraithlord - 200pts for three - toughness should be at a premium in an eldar list and even at 200pts these guys are great.
Falcons - 275 (that change to pulse rule has made falcons and firestorms great)

Marines
Terminators - 350
Landing Craft - 375
Vindicators + preds - 250
Landraiders - 350

+ Guard & Marine Change
Single Warhound - 275pts

Now of course there are subtle things wrong with lists and yes maybe we could try and fix everything at once but I can guarantee that no consnesus will be reached and almost certainly given the fairly limited resources your trying to do it with you will probably create more problems than you solve.




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nealhunt
 Post subject: UK tournament scene
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 6:42 pm 
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Again, Yme's suggestions are along the minimalist lines I was thinking with the "tourney mod" suggestions.

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: UK tournament scene
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 6:46 pm 
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Neal, why don't you give a more detailed description of what you want for:
  • The minimalist tournie changes
  • The full review


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    The_Real_Chris
     Post subject: UK tournament scene
    PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 7:30 pm 
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    I can guaranty yme that I can make an even worse list with just that change :) It was the first thing tested way back when.

    In case anyone is wondering what tis basically 8 support formations, sc, 2 flak, 5 infantry, ds, 2 forts, 125 for upgrades/changing something to sappers/another flak. Only downside is its to boring even for me!




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    Braveheart
     Post subject: UK tournament scene
    PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 7:42 pm 
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    Core!

    You turn your back for a day and look what happens ... i'm famous :) For those of you that don't know I'm Matt Otter.

    Just to let you know any changes, including new army lists, will be done by a commitee, of my choosing, to produce things of benefit to the EPIC UK tournament section. It must be noted that comments made on forums will ofcourse be taken into account and accepted where possible.

    It is true i want to keep to changing points where at all possible, however that doesn't mean I'm afraid of changing rules where individuality, or restoring balance, is needed.

    However at the moment I am in the middle of my dissertation and that comes first. It's due in November so little change will be happening until then. After that I hope an explosion of changes will happen which will all come to light in due course.

    Until then all I say is watch this space; see me at tournaments with any queries and don't be worried about EPIC UK tournaments seperating for the main scene. All will be revealed in the near future

    Long Live EPIC (apart from seigemasters)




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    nealhunt
     Post subject: UK tournament scene
    PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 8:19 pm 
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    (Lord Inquisitor @ May 28 2008,18:46)
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    Neal, why don't you give a more detailed description of what you want for:
  • The minimalist tournie changes
  • The full review

    • ???  In addition to several previous discussions on the concept of a minimalist set of changes, there were several posts discussing it in the "tourney mods" thread and I gave an example of a trimmed down set of points-only changes for Orks and a points-only set of suggested tourney changes for BL (except the DP TK change).

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    yme-loc
     Post subject: UK tournament scene
    PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 8:31 pm 
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    (The_Real_Chris @ May 28 2008,19:30)
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    I can guaranty yme that I can make an even worse list with just that change :) It was the first thing tested way back when.

    In case anyone is wondering what tis basically 8 support formations, sc, 2 flak, 5 infantry, ds, 2 forts, 125 for upgrades/changing something to sappers/another flak. Only downside is its to boring even for me!

    Might want to check your current list of changes then chris because that supposed uber list is possible under your current set.

    Assuming that 8 support refers to a combination of arty batteries and light tanks and maybe some thunderbolts (or maybe you just mean arty?).

    personally doesnt look too bad, having faced your current list with my eldar I am confident I could get a draw or win even if you played better - looking back I made alot of mistakes and an unfamiliarity with the new support rules didnt help.

    Also I actually meant just a straight value of 175pts for the infantry with the sc being that as well but if you want go with 200 for the sc - so then you would have your 17 activations but only 75pts to play with for upgrades.




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    The_Real_Chris
     Post subject: UK tournament scene
    PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 8:54 pm 
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    (The upgrades largely an irrelevance, its just to ensure the SC is the BTS.)

    The big difference is currently arty batteries are in emplacements. Thats a real killer. The biggest change in the revisions is them losing them and having to take transports, it makes a massive difference (no save LV's not lasting long in Epic).

    Indeed if you have just the cost go up and some of the other costs don't jiggle about you end up with pretty much that being the only competitive army (and maybe the heavy tank one - 4 or so heavy tank formations set up forward, scout tanks, infantry etc).




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    dptdexys
     Post subject: UK tournament scene
    PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 9:01 pm 
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    (The_Real_Chris @ May 28 2008,20:54)
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    The big difference is currently arty batteries are in emplacements. Thats a real killer. The biggest change is them losing them and having to take transports, it makes a massive difference (no save LV's not lasting long in Epic).

    But that won't stop players sticking them in emplacements bought as part of the fortifications.
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    The_Real_Chris
     Post subject: UK tournament scene
    PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 9:07 pm 
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    Which is fine - you are no longer facing immune to crossfire infantry in 3+ save bunkers. And of course if you wish to buy extra emplacements it costs 100 for 6 (and there are three lv tractors and 3 lv guns to a formation). Not to mention the fact that you have to have some odd barbed wire and stuff to ensure the fortifications are in coherency but the formations aren't intermingled.




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    Lord Inquisitor
     Post subject: UK tournament scene
    PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 9:14 pm 
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    (nealhunt @ May 28 2008,15:19)
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    ??? ?In addition to several previous discussions on the concept of a minimalist set of changes, there were several posts discussing it in the "tourney mods" thread and I gave an example of a trimmed down set of points-only changes for Orks and a points-only set of suggested tourney changes for BL (except the DP TK change).

    I was more wondering about the second part more than the first actually. Okay, I can set a point-value-only list of changes for BL for the current "tournament mods". Easy enough. Then again, a fix for the Feral is needed - and this can equally be achieved through the army list or through the datafax itself. Which is preferable? The points value might be "easier", but the datafax may be the root problem.

    What about the full review? Let's take the Chaos aircraft. Clearly there's a desire to get new aircraft stats together that match the forgeworld aircraft. Where do we stand on that? That's certainly not a minimalist change.
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    The_Real_Chris
     Post subject: UK tournament scene
    PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 9:15 pm 
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    I think the way to have fuller reviews is to write new army lists to stand alongside the tweaked current ones.

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    yme-loc
     Post subject: UK tournament scene
    PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 9:19 pm 
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    (The_Real_Chris @ May 28 2008,20:54)
    QUOTE
    (The upgrades largely an irrelevance, its just to ensure the SC is the BTS.)

    The big difference is currently arty batteries are in emplacements. Thats a real killer. The biggest change in the revisions is them losing them and having to take transports, it makes a massive difference (no save LV's not lasting long in Epic).

    Indeed if you have just the cost go up and some of the other costs don't jiggle about you end up with pretty much that being the only competitive army (and maybe the heavy tank one - 4 or so heavy tank formations set up forward, scout tanks, infantry etc).

    Lets face it chris - despite your best efforts its always going to be something along those lines that is the best siege list - your slightly longer list of changes compared to my suggested one change has a net difference of about 25pts for most siege lists.

    Also whats to stop these arty batteries with tractors setting up in woods or other cover and using the tractors as bullet catchers and/or to make the formation harder to break.

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    The_Real_Chris
     Post subject: UK tournament scene
    PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 9:31 pm 
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    We did dozens of playtest games using all these stats to find out. Turns out you can't have that much gear in the available starting terrain in your side of the table without running into intermingling/counter battery problems. Also the emplace arty is more survivable than the tractor one no matter if they are catching bullets or not. And the net effect is quite large - in essence instead of a load of batteries you start to take companies. All just points changes did was to either make lists more extreme or shut down what should actually be a viable list structures (depending on the points changes used). Points and changes to formations (with no impact on peoples model collections) actually diversified the available options.

    Fair enough you've no intention of having a siege army so such things won't matter to much to you, instead you want something that is easier to beat. I'd like to achieve both things whilst making 'extremes' less viable.


    In general now, with hopefully siege discussion shifting to the siege changes thread, stuff like the commissars change is neither here nor there if you are facing a guard army, but a massive relief if you are trying to paint one WYSIWYG. Not everyone is nuts like me to have two command stands per infantry company for instance.




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