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Rules Review Blog
blackhorizon
 Post subject: Rules Review Blog
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:34 am 
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I think a mayor problem for SG to update rulebooks is the fact they are being in print.

The best solution, this applies to all SG, is if SG dropped the printed rulebooks. That way updates online could be easilier done without offending players who just bought a rulebook.

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Mojarn Piett
 Post subject: Rules Review Blog
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:15 am 
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Well, the Blood Bowl rules (for example) were also in print, originally, and still they started to update the online version frequently.

Doesn't it offend players as much that the books were put to the net in the first place? Meaning: "Hey, I had to PAY for my book and now all the latecomers will have it for free!".

Just my NSHO, of course, but IMO the question about whether this or that will split the community is purely academic. If something is done, not all will approve and continue to use the old rules. If nothing is done, not all will approve and continue developing the rules. Either way there's going to be a split. Personally I think stagnation scares off more players than changes that show the game is still being cared for.

I understand well enough that JJ's hands are effectively tied for the simple reason he does not have any control over the purse strings. What I'm disappointed in is he does nothing to get the ERC up and running again as that does not cost anything to GW (volunteers rarely do).

To rephrase. There's going to be NO new minis in the foreseeable future and he can do nothing about it. Also, he's probably been told to work on other things (for 40k) to earn his bread as even his time costs GW. Since that kind of support is out of the question, what can he do to show the game still has life in it? Revive the rules review process. And how is that done? By seeing who is ACTIVE in the community and making the hardest working people do the hard work on his behalf. Then going through the suggestions and giving them official stamp if he approves. Then updating the rulebook. Not just debunking people (backed up by a couple of dusty Gregs from who knows where) by telling them if they don't get the rules as written by him they are rules lawyers. Not all people in this world have English as their first language.  :angry:

Even at the risk of sounding like a crackpot conspiracy theorist I'm starting to suspect he's been specifically TOLD to let Epic be as it "takes away people who would otherwise be buying 40k".

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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: Rules Review Blog
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:57 am 
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(Mojarn Piett @ Jan. 30 2008,08:15)
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"takes away people who would otherwise be buying 40k".

And of course the funny thing is most of us are old enough and horders that with the new 40k Ork codex being released; we can get giddy as we already have 2 Shokkattack guns, Battlewagons, trukks and enough figures that the price drop for a standard ork means that we can field more of our 1980's plastic orks. With the benefit of taking great pleasure in playing against kids whilst telling them that the figures that are killing their brand new Marines are older than them. ?:devil:

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blackhorizon
 Post subject: Rules Review Blog
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:07 am 
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(Mojarn Piett @ Jan. 30 2008,09:15)
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Well, the Blood Bowl rules (for example) were also in print, originally, and still they started to update the online version frequently.

Doesn't it offend players as much that the books were put to the net in the first place? Meaning: "Hey, I had to PAY for my book and now all the latecomers will have it for free!".

I agree, that's what bewilders me most: the frequent blood bowl updates.

On BFG:
1.released '99
2.FAQ
3.Incorporated that FAQ into a new printed rulebook in 2006.
4.New FAQ

Long ago when I started 40k was angry when my Chaos book got obsolete after one year.

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zombocom
 Post subject: Rules Review Blog
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:44 am 
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There seems to be a call for a new ERC, whether that ERC becomes accepted and official or not. Perhaps this is the path we should follow:

Vote in a new ERC.
Let JJ/Andy know that the community has decided on some new faces to represent us.
If they accept this then we carry on as before, but with a new team to work towards a rules review.
If they don't accept it then we know for sure that they are uninterested in what the community wants, so it may be time for a split.

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Dave
 Post subject: Rules Review Blog
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:42 pm 
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(blackhorizon @ Jan. 30 2008,05:07)
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I agree, that's what bewilders me most: the frequent blood bowl updates.

On BFG:
1.released '99
2.FAQ
3.Incorporated that FAQ into a new printed rulebook in 2006.
4.New FAQ

Long ago when I started 40k was angry when my Chaos book got obsolete after one year.

There was a seven year spread there between new printed material.  EA saw a release in what, 2002? And the updated PDFs are from 2004.  Another printed release next year would adhere to those trends.

BH, I'm curious, do you know how the rules review was handled in BFG? I assume new rules were added in addition to the FAQ being incorporated into the language of the old rules.

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blackhorizon
 Post subject: Rules Review Blog
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:01 pm 
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(Dave @ Jan. 30 2008,15:42)
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BH, I'm curious, do you know how the rules review was handled in BFG? I assume new rules were added in addition to the FAQ being incorporated into the language of the old rules.

I was no part of it but they incorporated most of the old FAQ into the 2006 rulebook.
That old FAQ was released around 2003-2004 if I recall correctly.

All Questions/Answers collected in the period between old FAQ and 2006 rulebook (by the answer-mods at the SG forum) were not incorporated as far as I know.

The rules only saw 2 main changes: Nova Cannon & Ordnance which were the main assets in the old FAQ.
They also fiddled some points (Emperor/Retribution swap, Styx lowering, and Ork point/stats fixes which no one ever asked for and most don't like)).

The actual changes in the rulebook were clumsy:
- with the nova cannon the wording changed but the old diagram stayed.
- they meant to include some fighter / turret suppresion rules which were in but didn't appear in the edition.
- same goes to the Repulsive shield upgrade.

Sidenote: the bfg rules comittee / HA only got orders from SG to incorporate changes supported by masses and masses (like the Styx, Retribution/Emperor swap). Changes which were favoured by most got left out.

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fracas
 Post subject: Rules Review Blog
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:11 am 
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option 4. buy the rights from SQ for E:A and then effectively take over the development of the game and publish rules and lists. funding can be raised via the net for part ownership of the "new company". in essence, when you are considering a separate net E:A, this is what you are doing. and netEA can only exist with the consent of SG as they hold ownership of the game. or until you do.

option 5. offer to SG to pay for publications of the updated rules and list for SG but let them retain ownership. if we cannot generate enough interests for at least 1 set of printing payment, why would SG commit the money without a reasonable expectations of at least breaking even.
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Morg
 Post subject: Rules Review Blog
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:56 am 
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I doubt that we could collect enough money to buy Epic from GW. I even more doubt that GW would ever sell some of its IP.

It's hard to argue about interest for a certain game if the company does never publicize any sales numbers. But one thing is sure: If Epic did not at least break even in some way it wouldn't be in the portfolio anymore.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Rules Review Blog
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:00 pm 
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I already asked Andy Hall if somebody could buy the rights for the Chaos Android model for a limited production run.  I would have done it and easily made money.  I even offered to have them draw up a contract with whatever conditions they wanted.

The answer was no.  In fact it was a big no.  He said it would be like Coca-Cola giving up the secret recipe to Coke.  I rolled my eyes a bit at this but the answer was still no.  My guess is you would get a similar answer. :)

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fracas
 Post subject: Rules Review Blog
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:32 pm 
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i wouldn't expect SG to sell or even lease the rights to any of their games, but if you are talking about further developement of netepic, this is a wall you will run into. they will yank their leash and halt any further unauthorized development.

option 5 might happen if you can generate what in essence would be a pre-order for an updated rule book/etc. not much difference from a petition list but one that comes with money. someone with skills at modifying pdf can get an estimate of how much it would cost to publish and then solicit pre-orders and present this as a package (cost of publication + pre-order $ ) to SG.
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J0k3r
 Post subject: Rules Review Blog
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:47 pm 
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Well, to my knowledge they have tolerated the original NetEpic and Markconz hasnt been hit wit da copyright hamma so we should be ok as long as all sources are referenced and it is clearly not for profit.  I  would have thought that if there were major problems with the possibility of NetEA we (well at least Neal or CyberShadow) would have heard about it as Andy and Jervis are surely aware of the rumblings on this forum.  

Would someone more in the loop want to comment on the legality stuff?




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Rules Review Blog
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:49 pm 
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NetEpic is actually mentioned in the Epic 40,000 Battles Book IIRC.

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fracas
 Post subject: Rules Review Blog
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:58 pm 
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i am glad that as is, net epic has at least the tacit support from SG and i hope it continues. but i do wonder if this support will last if SG thinks netepic is getting too far ahead of what SG comfort zone is. this seems to be nearer than farther based on what was posted regarding JJ's comments.

i favor generating a preorder approach.
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