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Greens want us to pollute!
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=8009		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  ragnarok [ Fri Nov 24, 2006 10:56 am ]
Post subject:  Greens want us to pollute!
I was reading this article on the BBCs news page on the proposed building of a nuclear fusion reactor.

Finally after years of trying we are going to try again, on a bigger scale.

The funny bit for me is how some greenie said we should use tried and tested means ofmaking energy, rather than spend billions on a pipe dream.

The problem is that the tried and tested means all pollute. ?Fossile fuels and bio mass all produce C02 (which is holding back the next ice age :laugh: ) and the renewable ones arn't proven to be that useful yet (so we shouldn't bother using them ?:p ) kill animals or compete for space with farming, so are placed in worst areas and don't work, or displace the farms, so they need to use fertilisers.

There again it could just be that I don't like greens at the moment, I'm reading angels down in which greens destroy the earth!
Author:  Mojarn Piett [ Fri Nov 24, 2006 11:13 am ]
Post subject:  Greens want us to pollute!
Agreed. However, in 50-100 years the "tried and tested" have most likely caused irreparable damage especially if the power consumption keeps rising exponentially so we can't just wait for Fusion to solve all our problems. There is a need for intermediate solution as well.

Of course, if humanity was that smart Sahara would've been covered with solar panels long ago.  :alien:
Author:  J0k3r [ Fri Nov 24, 2006 11:36 am ]
Post subject:  Greens want us to pollute!
Good to see realistic investment in fusion at last!

regarding renewables they need to be taken seriously in the first place rather than the haphazard manner they are currently being used (in the UK at least).  In my mind the most important thin, though, is to change the way we use energy- turning of lightbulbs, more efficient cars etc and accept that we need to pay more for the most polluting technologies.  Ok, its not a solution in its own right, but its a start :)

Also regarding just investing in tried and tested technologies?  What, like tidal stream and wave power?  Hang on, thats not tried and tested yet- better stick with less efficient wind power...  :glare:
Author:  mageboltrat [ Fri Nov 24, 2006 11:37 am ]
Post subject:  Greens want us to pollute!
What we need to do is cover mercury in solar panels and then microwave the energy down to earth.
Author:  ragnarok [ Fri Nov 24, 2006 12:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Greens want us to pollute!

(Mojarn Piett @ Nov. 24 2006,10:13)
QUOTE
Of course, if humanity was that smart Sahara would've been covered with solar panels long ago. ?:alien:

You can't do that you will be destroying the natural habitate of its native animals... all 6 of them.

also Ratty I see a problem with your idea.  The sun is nonrenewable and when its gone we wont have any power.  :confuse:
Author:  MaksimSmelchak [ Fri Nov 24, 2006 5:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Greens want us to pollute!
Hi Guys,

Watch out for the carbon tax that eco-friendly companies might pay and 3rd world polluters will ignore... making the whole thing a well-intentioned idea like the rest on the pavement... everyone has to play the game to make it work.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
Author:  firestorm40k [ Fri Nov 24, 2006 5:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Greens want us to pollute!

(ragnarok @ Nov. 24 2006,11:12)
QUOTE

(Mojarn Piett @ Nov. 24 2006,10:13)
QUOTE
Of course, if humanity was that smart Sahara would've been covered with solar panels long ago. ?:alien:

You can't do that you will be destroying the natural habitate of its native animals... all 6 of them.

I read somewhere about 18months ago that a serious programme of solar panels in the Northern African continent would not only provide several countries with their energy needs, but millions on dry regions with water.

I'm not sure how this would work, or to what extent it's been exaggerated; but I think there's untapped potential in solar etc depending on where they're put.

I think the arguments against renewables really go down to the fact that if your wealth & power depends upon people using fossil or nuclear fuels, and you have a large say in government policy, then you can have a great influence against them.

And I'll stop before it gets too political, I've had my wrists slapped for this before!  :devil:
Author:  MaksimSmelchak [ Fri Nov 24, 2006 5:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Greens want us to pollute!
Hi Guys,

Israel has long had solar-powered water heaters... they're a part of the Israeli landscape. Every roof has one.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
Author:  Chroma [ Fri Nov 24, 2006 5:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Greens want us to pollute!

(firestorm40k @ Nov. 24 2006,16:24)
QUOTE
I read somewhere about 18months ago that a serious programme of solar panels in the Northern African continent would not only provide several countries with their energy needs, but millions on dry regions with water.

Unfortunately, I fear the Law of Unintended Consequences might rear its ugly head in macro situations like this:

We take a lot of "heat" energy out of the area (light converted to heat by striking the sand) and turn it into electrical energy that is used elsewhere (turning into heat again eventually), on a large enough scale to be useful, this has a potential climate change impact that I don't think has really been examined.  The Sahara might not have a lot of lifeforms present, but it's still a thermo-regulator for the climate.

Thoughts?

I fully support localized "micro" endeavours like Israeli solar water-heating and such as that still keeps the energy/heat cycle local.
Author:  MaksimSmelchak [ Fri Nov 24, 2006 6:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Greens want us to pollute!
Hi Chroma,

I tend to agree with you.

The idea of meeting at places like Kyoto is great, but some of the results from those meetings have been very unfair... to the point that I wouldn't want to support them. Unfair practice is not sustainable in the long run. Someone gets upset and throws the whole thing out at some point if it's unfair.

I think that eco-forming, aereo-forming or whatever else you want to call it is probably best off done at a "grass roots" "micro level" until we come up with the hard science to support a better plan. The Al Gore plan is rubbish when you look at it's absolutely flimsy scientific underpinnings. Great idea, but there's no hard scientific proof to support the conclusion... right now, we have conflicting scientific data that global warming might just be a normal part of the planet's cycle rather than the result of something humanity did wrong.

I try to do my part by planting foliage in the urban environment, recycling, conserving electricity (turning off lights in rooms I'm not in, not running climate control, and being efficient in what power I do use. etc.) and otherwise being aware that I can reduce my footprint on the environment to a very acceptable level... on par with what societal animals leave, which is OK with me. ?

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
Author:  ragnarok [ Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Greens want us to pollute!
I try to do my part with conserving electricity.  I walk 40 minutes to work in the morning (and back again in the evening  :D ) and only heat the room I am in when at home.  I am also being forced to recycle by my local council.

However, after reading that Britain doesn't has the recycling ability and is shipping a large percentage to china (I think 60% was quoted), I don't see that recycling is having such a useful impact.

The fuel burnt to transport such an amount to china must off set the amount saved by recycling.  There are also reports out saying that the green electric cars pollute more than the gas guzzlers, due to the complex batterries and ciruits, needed to run them, needing large quanties of energy to make and dispose of safly.

Of course reports and statisics are "twisted" to suit the report.  I remember hearing once (not that long ago) that coal power stations release more radioactive material into the atmosphere than nuclear power plants.

Possible right, but carbon 13 never did anyone any harm.
Author:  CyberShadow [ Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Greens want us to pollute!
I am totally carbon neutral (home and car), and walk as much as possible.
Author:  Mohawk [ Mon Nov 27, 2006 2:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Greens want us to pollute!

(MaksimSmelchak @ Nov. 24 2006,17:04)
QUOTE
(snip)

Great idea, but there's no hard scientific proof to support the conclusion... right now, we have conflicting scientific data that global warming might just be a normal part of the planet's cycle rather than the result of something humanity did wrong.

(snip)

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

Sorry to correct you but that myth is to longlived by far. Global warming is proven and accepted by the research society as a whole. There are some researchers that still claim the opposite, the most loud is sponsored by the petroleum institute (USA corp - dont remeber the exact name)

Its a fact that human activity has increased the global warming. The mean temp would probably have risen without us but not near the rate it increasing right now. And its the haigh rate of change thats really dangerues.

The big issue is if the united states will take responability for all that carbondioxide it puts out (the highest amount per capita in the world) or not. But with Bush at the rudder its a slim chance. Hopefully someone with a more holistic view takes over in 2 years.

That said, and considering myself somewhat green, i hope they get that fusion plant running soon!
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