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Space Marine, Epic40k, Armageddon

 Post subject: Space Marine, Epic40k, Armageddon
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 9:30 am 
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Hi,

Being from the current incarnation of Epic I've often wondered what version of Epic you (all you who've tried more than one version) actually think is the better one?

I own Epic40k, Epic Space Marine and Epic Armageddon myself, I have yet to try and play others than EA. Mainly because I lack opponents that have the special epic enthusiasm which is so appearent in some people.

I've gathered that Space Marine is best if you want really large battles, right? What's the strenght of E40k then?

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 Post subject: Space Marine, Epic40k, Armageddon
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 9:40 am 
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E40k has, admittedly, the most elegant engine of them all. Ironically, that has also proven to be its chief weakness: it's too generic. As a generic Sci-fi combat system it would be superb. As a 40k universe epic game it's too bland.

Personally I like Net Epic but I'm obviously biased.  :8):

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 Post subject: Space Marine, Epic40k, Armageddon
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 9:47 am 
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I've got the same games you have KbD and play very little unfortunately - but i'd agree with Mojarn on this one. :D

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 Post subject: Space Marine, Epic40k, Armageddon
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 1:50 pm 
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You missed Netepic and Space marine/Adeptus Titanicus.

AT works great as a railway table game :)

E40k is the finest, EA the most warhammer experience. 2nd ed just sucked (unless you like lining up and rolling the dice).

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 Post subject: Space Marine, Epic40k, Armageddon
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 3:24 pm 
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Oh what's netepic?

My main thought behind this post was to hear if ANY of the older versions are worth picking up and trying to learn TODAY... or if they're merely obsolete versions of the current game.

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 Post subject: Space Marine, Epic40k, Armageddon
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:22 pm 
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IMO - E:A "melded" with some SM1 and 2 + Maksim's Planetfall ... :;):

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 Post subject: Space Marine, Epic40k, Armageddon
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:59 pm 
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NetEpic is essentially a heavily modified version of SM/TL.  It solved a lot of the "line up and roll dice" problems of SM/TL.  Most of the people who defend SM/TL houseruled a lot of stuff that eventually made it into NetEpic.


Personally, I like EA.  It's much sleeker than the SM/TL/NetEpic rules and more flavorful than the E40K rules.  I think it strikes a good balance and makes for very fun play.

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 Post subject: Space Marine, Epic40k, Armageddon
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 5:10 pm 
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One advantage SM/TL has is that it's pretty easy to learn, certainly easier than E:A, IMO.

SM/TL is still my favorite version, but there are aspects of AT I like. E40k is too watered down for me. I haven't played Netepic, yet, but it looks like it may end up being my favorite version.





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 Post subject: Space Marine, Epic40k, Armageddon
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:33 pm 
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EA is my favourite version. With first edition being a great game if you have a couple of games set aside for clearing up the counters each turn.

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 Post subject: Space Marine, Epic40k, Armageddon
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 7:06 pm 
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Hi!

Well, its been a while since this question has come up. Would of made for a good flame war 7 or 8 years ago... :;): :D

Most people who like or play SM2/TL have long since migrated to NetEpic.

NetEpic is a fan based modification of the SM2/TL rules. It updated, streamlined and added all the new units that GW has put up since the game was put to rest in 1997. This is the short answer. If you want a detailed response of the differences and how it plays, then let me know and I'll give you the verbose version. :;):

A "best" version is highly subjective. There are only subjective responses depending on what you like and dislike. They are ALL worth picking up and learning, they are ALL fun and worth teaching and learning to play. Only when you have experienced all of them can you reliably say whats best for you. It perhaps is not a wholly satisfactory answer, but it does capture the whole spectrum of feelings regarding the versions.

As for advatages and disadvantages here is my take:

SM/AT first edition:

Advantage:
For titan versus titan battles it IS still the best. No version has come close to capture the feel of such type of combat. If this is your interest, then this is the ruleset for you.

Several rules which still havent been bested by any version (rules for missions, experience and buying over the point limit)

Disadvatage: since this started as a titan only game then evolved to include more units the coordination of rules mechanics between the two parts is clunky, inelegant and doesnt work to well. Large battles are a nightmare to run and complete. Also it is an incomplete system, many missing units and some armies were not totally dne (no aspect warriors for example).

SM2/TL

Advantages:
If you like big battles, this is the system to play. I've managed up to 40k per side and still finished the game before the sun went down. Units are very large and thus capture that epic "feel". The amount of "minis on the table" seems to be going down in later versions. tabletops in this version look "full" or "epic".

The basic rules are VERY simple. The core booklet has about 16 pages of rules (please read is disadvatages below regarding special rules).

Army construction with army cards: simply STILL the best most efficient method of army construction. You can through together an army of almost any size under 15 minutes.

It is the only COMPLETE system ever made for epic. Let me define complete, it means that ALL rules for ALL armies and units were released officially by GW in forms of rulesbooks. All other systems have never reached this point since they got their support pulled or in case of Epic A, their lists of in the development stage and have yet to be released.

The last system where squats exsist as a separate SUPPORTED entity.

In short this is the system which all others are measured by. It was the system of epics golden age, where it had the most support and players. This is a fact whether the system itself suits individual tastes or not. This system ran a total of 6 years. The longest running version (besides NetEpic :;): )

Disadvanatges:

Too many special rules. It suffered from rules bloat. Many were added by people with little expereince in epic and they were poorly thought out and test and sometimes contradictory. Even though the basic mechanic is extremely simple the amount of add-ons is staggering..

Rules were spread out over too many books and WD articles. A cohesive attempt to bring them into one unified set of rules was never done. Also later expansions sometimes substituted older rules thus making it even more confusion.

"line 'em up and charge!": there were no well developed rules for scenarios and such, thus the battles were repetitive and just going after "objectives" dull. While scenarios and such are possible and mentioned in WD, they were never integrated with the main system.

Restricted army construction and model usage: While some consider it an advantage the way this system regulated what could be bought and how the army was constructed, the amount of units need to present fieldable units according to the army cards was onerous on the player and you wound up with many "extras" that you could not use since the amount of units need for the unit didnt match GW's packaging of epic minis. Unlike later versions where you could use these extras due to their point systems, you were stuck with no use units under this system.

Epic 40k

Advantages

Most streamlined, elegant and rapidly playable of all epic systems. You want a quick game with few minis on the table this is it. No endless special rules or exceptions.

Good representation of fliers. I really loved how they handled this (fliers under SM2/TL were an afterthought and poorly integrated). I think its the best system made for them.

Last self contained game in a box, all you needed was there (although not complete in my definition, see disadvantages below), very newbie friendly presenatation and execution.

Some of the best minis ever produced are from this era.

Disadvantages

The streamlined nature came at the price or the armies individuality and character. Mechanics-wise there was not much to tell the armies and units apart aside from the actual minis used. While "bland" is a matter of opinion, enough people shared this opinion to kill its commercial appeal. The reasons to this are as many as the gamers themselves.

Incomplete: Squats were eliminated, chaos lost many "characterful" units. While the book had "get you by list" that were usable this game never evolved enough to flesh out all the armies and units that exsisted under SM2/TL. Note that under firepower magazine most of these misiing units and armies did try to reappear, but it was too little too late. In the case speciafically of squats, not very good in capturing the character they had under SM2/TL.

In spite of this, it is still the most complete effort, second to SM2/TL and definitely more self contained.

Epic A

Advantages:

The only version to be designed with close feedback from the gaming community. This is extremely important, since it designed a game that had some guarantee that the fanbase would like.

Tries to conciliated the axis of detail vs streamlining and has succeeded to a good degree.

Disadvantages

Still incomplete, though playtesting and online support are on thier way in remedying this, with GW's offical stamp, or not.

Having not played it since its creation phase I am not competent to comment on actual play or any holes in the mechanics. I leave that to our resident experts.

I left out NetEpic, since that I can reply to separately if you're interested.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Space Marine, Epic40k, Armageddon
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 7:25 pm 
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Can't talk about about AT/TL as I just missed it. At the time of its release I was abroad working in France and by the time I got back to UK Spacehulk & 40k Rogue Trader had taken off.

Space Marine was great when I worked in GW as a key-timer at uni- given the choice between studying my coursework or hanging out at the Plaza store playing Epic..... :D
However even playing Epic about 6-7 times a week I was struggling to cope with rembering all of the unit stats and special rules.

When Renegade Legions came out it seemed that every single unit had it's own special rule, each one very similar to another unit but each one with a slight twist to catch the unwary. I found it difficult to keep up even playing Space Marine as regularly as I was then.

Epic 40k- as I told Andy Chambers in Plaza store- great minis, crap rules. It became too abstracted. There was not enough differentiation between units, no character to the game. And we lost our unit cards!! For many of my local gaming club the loss of the unit cards was enough in itself. Epic40k bombed locally- got played a couple of times and then put in back of cupboard permanently.

For me EpicA has fused the best bits of both rule sets of Space Marine and Epic40k. There is variety of units but not overly so. There is more consistency of unit special rules. The figures don't look quite as cool as Epic40k era figures. But at least the game is still alive.....
???
Cheers

James

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 Post subject: Space Marine, Epic40k, Armageddon
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:18 am 
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Good Report "P" !  Agree with you ! :D

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 Post subject: Space Marine, Epic40k, Armageddon
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:31 pm 
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I agree with you there P - Nothing has replaced the Titan smashing fun of AT IMHO.    The long rumoured AT3 would be a welcome addition to the range.   Titans have been blanded out for simplicity and playability, without the option of having the detail for those who want it.

Other than that EA is the best rules system yet, though I played far more SM than anything else and so Netepic appeals to me more than most.

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 Post subject: Space Marine, Epic40k, Armageddon
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:03 pm 
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Hi!

In time, especially if Epic A manages to put out a complete system, it may truely become the heir to SM2/TL. Until then, I'll stick with a complete supported system (NetEpic).... :;):

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