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Moving abroad
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=3552		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Magnus [ Mon Aug 29, 2005 12:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Moving abroad
The past few years have not been good for me, and the last few months in particular have been pretty bad. I was able to work only a fraction of the time, and I'm still currently looking for a job.

For reasons too complex and boring to discuss here, I'm convinced that the general italian situation is going to evolve from bad to worse. This means *MY* situation is likely going to follow the course. I could have a lucky break, of course, but I have never been one to count on luck. And besides, I'm fed up with a number of things in my country; I love Italy, but italians are starting to grate on me. Not exactly an ideal situation.

So, I'm now seriously considering looking for a job away from my home country, and was wondering if someone here could give me a few useful pointers. I know of the various career web sites, and I'll be going to use a few, but direct communication with someone "living there" is probably going to give me useful and otherwise inaccessible info.

To better pinpoint things, I work as a software developer / DBA admin, with strong skills in Oracle DB design, manteinance and application development, and C, C++ and .NET development, with almost 8 years of experience on the job.

I'm mainly looking at moving in "anglo-derived" countries, which basically means UK, Ireland, USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, to name the most obvious. UK and Ireland would probably be easier, since going out of Euroland means I need a work permit; then again, I know that there are companies out there willing to provide those if they're interested.

Soo.... if anyone of you "locals" can help me avoid common pitfalls / give me useful pointers / hire me :p , I'd be grateful.
Author:  vanvlak [ Mon Aug 29, 2005 3:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Moving abroad
Er - would Malta count as Anglo-derived? We were a colony, you know?
Then again - unless you want low wages - forget it! :p
Good luck Magnus.
Author:  dafrca [ Mon Aug 29, 2005 3:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Moving abroad
I understand your desire, but I believe there needs to be a small reality check on your plans. I work for a fortune 100 company here in the states. They just laid off more then 600 people who do the kind of thing you do. Keep in mind, some had more then 10 years experience, I know my one friend had 14 years. Almost the complete IT server support team was out sourced about two months ago.

Further, based on many of the business publications our company is not the only one to do so. The trend is to out source to none US based firms. That is a buzz word for India, Pakistan, and a few others. Almost none are "anglo-derived".

Now, that does not mean there is not jobs to be had, but then we start to see a downward pressure on the ?average? pay. The jobs that remain are fought over by a large crowd of out of work people, thus the pay goes down. To come to New York for example, and do so for a low pay job?. well it seems we are now talking about a quality of life question.

I would use a lot of caution before doing something like placing my future on a move to another country unless there was a very good separation package attached to the offer.

I am not trying to say do not do it, but I am saying be ready for a less then easy search for a job that is both well paid and in a place you would like to go.

dafrca
Author:  Dwarf Supreme [ Mon Aug 29, 2005 3:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Moving abroad
Magnus,

The job market might be tight in Ireland. I know that many Irish have emigrated to here, the US, for that reason.

A good way to start is to pick target companies that you might like to work for. In your case, choosing an international company would be helpful. For example, United Technologies, a US company, has many divisions throughout the world. Once you have picked your targets, do research on them, e.g. what they do, HR contacts and if they are hiring.

The most important tip I can give, is to do lots and lots of networking. Often times, jobs are found through a friend of a friend. Talk to people you know, see if you can talk with recruiters, etc. Fortunately, you already started this by telling us about your desire to move.

If you haven't posted a resume on Monster, I would do that right away. If you need more tips, just let me know.

Good Luck!   :)
Author:  Magnus [ Mon Aug 29, 2005 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Moving abroad
Dafrca: I have no illusions about "foreign eldorado". But the situation in Italy is bad now, and is only going to get worse as time passes. There are structural problems which go far beyond short-time economic contingencies, and no will whatsoever to solve them.
We have lost any shred of heavy industry, chemicals etc., with FIAT being the only holdover and everyone wonders how much longer they can last. Textile is going to get a spanking of cosmic proportion by China. No trace of high-tech. Financial is already taken by the UK (and see below for banks anyway). Agriculture is a Europe-widespread expensive joke, costing the european community 300billion EU/year. Just about the only companies making good profits are the service ones (banks, insurance companies, telcoms, energy etc.) but that is not because they're good; it is because they work predominantly on the internal market and in de-facto monopolies and/or (illegal) cartels, which will finally crumble to the external pressure of ridiculously better foreign companies. Oh, and tourism is good too, but I doubt you can sustain an advanced economy by tourism alone.

I might even be able to get a good, well paid job here, but the question remains: where does that leave me (and, even more important should I have them in the future, my sons) in 15-20 years time [assuming I'm still alive, of course, but hey...] ?

About outsourcing... trust me, I'm well aware of the tendency. As for "low pay"... here in Italy right now it is difficult for me to reach 30.000-35.000 EU (gross), a level which I had no problems getting five years ago, with a much more limited experience and before the Euro inflation... and I'm good at my job. Is that SO bad in the US already?

Dwarf: I know about monster. I've already put in the CV on the italian site, but of course, the next step is to update the english version and post it to... every other national site, basically. And yes, I do know about the importance of networking; unfortunately, it's the one thing I don't know how to do :p
Author:  vanvlak [ Mon Aug 29, 2005 5:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Moving abroad
30,000EU? Bugger all, with 14 years work experience in different engineering roles, with an undergrad degree, a postgrad, and a PhD in progress, I get less than 20,000EU! :( :( :(
Author:  Magnus [ Mon Aug 29, 2005 5:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Moving abroad
Hmm... but how much do you pay for rent Vanvlak? Remember to factor in the cost of life.... direct comparisons are dangerous.

One of the thing I'd like to know, for example, is how much I can expect to pay for an house, transport, etc. and what is the "average" salary for someone with my skill/experience. Kinda hard to haggle without having any idea about these factors..
Author:  vanvlak [ Mon Aug 29, 2005 5:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Moving abroad
Heh, ok - I own a house, which is good - but I bought it some 15 years ago - I'd never be able to afford it today. It is an inverstment, though. Life, however, is becoming horribly expensive, and last time I visited the UK I found the essentials to cost about as much as here (luxuries are cheaper there!). As for future prospects - good grief, are there any here? A post at Univ is reasonably safe, but the general outlook is forbidding. Not to mention the fact that a very large number of engineers (my profession) are all employed by one foreign owned company. They've started reducing their local production. If what they call the 'research'ection folds, we'd have generations of students without a job. :( And we're still getting more and more entries for the course, beyond our infrastructure, just to make matters worse.
Many docs are leaving the island - their wages are miserly, and they easily earn 4x as much or more abroad. Little or no investment is made in research or innovation, and the only big plans are an inverstment in the pharmaceutical industry (nothing too concrete, either) and a new golf course, just to wreck whats left of our natural environment. :angry:

Oh well, sorry, I'm off topic now.
Magnus, I wish you the best of luck, but don't be too harsh on your country. :(

Oh - to answer your questions - a house and rent could be expensive - a small flat in an ordinary sort of location could easily cost close to 50,000 Euros. A small car could cost 13,000 Euros. Public transport is cheap, but can be terribley inefficient. My wife and I pay around 350 Euros on foodstuffs, detergents each month (ok, lots of cat food too!) Water and electricity bills cost about half as much, but we have a gas cooker, not an electric one - although we also use a microwave oven; and water heating is unnecessary over the summer months. An ADSL network connection can cost 500Euros a year; a reasonably good desktop 1000Euros. Telephone bills are more difficult to compute, as I only keep poor track of mobile phone calls!

Someone in your profession could gain anything between 14,000 to 23,000 Euros a year, depending on experience (and the employer!), but more might be had , depending on the nature of work done. You could easily earn more than I do - lecturers have notoriously low wages.  :(
Author:  Heresiarch [ Mon Aug 29, 2005 5:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Moving abroad
Quote (Magnus @ 29 2005 Aug.,05:45)
To better pinpoint things, I work as a software developer / DBA admin, with strong skills in Oracle DB design, manteinance and application development, and C, C++ and .NET development, with almost 8 years of experience on the job.

If you don't mind working for energy companies a resume like that mght stand a decent chance of landing you a job here in Calgary (Alberta Canada) Magnus.

I have more than one friend with similar experience to you working for oil companies and I'd say their average salary is between 60-90K Canadian per year depending on the company.

The quality of life here is pretty decent as well IMO.

The downside to this is most of the work is now down through consulting companies so theres no guarantee of a permenant job but... I doubt thats much different anywhere else.
Author:  Dwarf Supreme [ Mon Aug 29, 2005 6:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Moving abroad
Connecticut has lots of insurance companies and the starting salaries are in the neighborhood of $50,000 - $60,000 USD. You can post your resume and search for jobs on a website called CareerBuilder.com, which I believe concentrates on the Northeast US. Unfortunately, the cost of living in Connecticut is higher than other parts, but I have no complaints about living here.
Author:  Magnus [ Mon Aug 29, 2005 6:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Moving abroad
Heresiarch: Canada would probably be my first choice if I had any say. I love it... at least judging from afar :)

As for "permanent job", currently that is more or less akin to the Phoenix: everyone says it exists, nowhere knows where to find it....

Vanvlak: a 65-70 square meters flat anywhere in Rome is not going to cost you less than 150K ?, unless you have a lucky break. Then again, this comparison is unfair because the italian immobiliary market is currently experiencing a speculative bubble not unlike the one the IT market had back in 2000.

As for being too harsh... sigh.. I wish I were. My brother tells me I'm being too pessimistic, but all the signs I can read point in a bad direction. The problem here is that our society is old and based on a 50 years old economic and social model which is unfit for today's reality. Unfortunately, the old generations (which profit from unfair privileged positions which render everything inefficient) are more numerous [Italy = the one country in the world with negative demographic growth in the last decade or so], and they're not going to relinquish those privileges anytime soon. End result: disaster.
Author:  Blarg D Impaler [ Mon Aug 29, 2005 8:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Moving abroad
Sad to say, but I think you may be doing the right thing.  I have heard about what you are talking about with Italy's declining population and decrease in the economy.  Being the patriot that I am, allow me to suggest the United States.  We're all about being the "Land of Opportunity."

Something you may want to consider: Since you live in Italy, yet you are obviously quite fluent in English, I assume that you know both Italian and English?  Do you know any other languages?  You see, we Americans are very lazy about learning foreign languages, and American businesses jump at the opportunity to hire multi-lingual people, especially for international business.  A job as an international sales engineer can be very lucrative, assuming that you can find a company needing those skills.  If you have any business degrees at all, and are multi-lingual, then I suggest trying the language angle more than the skills angle.

Either way, good luck with your endeavors, what ever they may be.
Author:  primarch [ Mon Aug 29, 2005 9:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Moving abroad
Hi!

It seems things aren't "well" worldwide. Puerto Rico is experimenting record high debt and skyrocketing cost of living. I wouldnt recommend coming here, as jobs arent plentiful and have lousy pay.

Primarch
Author:  nealhunt [ Mon Aug 29, 2005 9:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Moving abroad
Magnus:  Good luck.

Unfortunately, I would guess that nearly every industrialized nation is on a similar trend.  It may not be as rapid as Italy, but age demographics are trending up in all of them and they all have "elder-care" programs that are reliant on proportionally smaller populations.  Even the US, with fairly liberal immigration standards to keep the population growing faster than most European countries, the trend is still upward significantly.

But this discussion is trending dangerously close to a political discussion... :p
Author:  primarch [ Mon Aug 29, 2005 9:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Moving abroad
Quote (nealhunt @ 29 2005 Aug.,16:18)
Magnus: ?Good luck.

Unfortunately, I would guess that nearly every industrialized nation is on a similar trend. ?It may not be as rapid as Italy, but age demographics are trending up in all of them and they all have "elder-care" programs that are reliant on proportionally smaller populations. ?Even the US, with fairly liberal immigration standards to keep the population growing faster than most European countries, the trend is still upward significantly.

But this discussion is trending dangerously close to a political discussion... :p

Hi!

Unfortunately many economical trends are based on ill-advized political decisions... :;):  :D

Primarch
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