Tactical Command
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/

Technobabble
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=3166		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  vanvlak [ Mon Jun 14, 2004 9:08 am ]
Post subject:  Technobabble
Hi all,
I couldn't find the right place to ask this question (below), so I set up this thread. Mods, please move it if it's out of place here. The reason I tossed it here is that techical questions usually come up when I'm converting stuff - i.e. modelling :p
So - to get to the question, which is a bit of a let-down, seeing it's linguistic rather than purely technical - well, to get to the . :
The 'extra armour' fitted to the vulnerable sides (especially the tracks and bogies) of tanks was (I may be corrected here) started by the Germans in WWII. I've found two variations of the term used: schutzen and schurzen. As the word should mean 'skirts' I guess a look at the German-English should work, but I'm too lazy to move off the keyboard, and I'll probably get more interesting answers this way.
So, treadheads and German-speakers, which is it?  ???
Author:  Jimbo [ Mon Jun 14, 2004 9:43 am ]
Post subject:  Technobabble
I have moved this to General Discussion
Author:  Warmaster Nice [ Mon Jun 14, 2004 3:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Technobabble
Urgh... It's been a couple of years since i had german in school. IIRC "Schutzen" roughly translates into  "protection" ...not too sure about "sch?rzen" though... It kindda phonetically resembles "skirts" but I dont know for sure.

Cheers! :)
Author:  Legion 4 [ Mon Jun 14, 2004 4:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Technobabble
Yes, IIRC, it is "Schutzen" ... ???
Author:  Mojarn Piett [ Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:41 am ]
Post subject:  Technobabble
It definitely is "sch?rtzen". I do not speak German but I have been dabbling with WWII armor modeling for 20 years.
Author:  Legion 4 [ Tue Jun 15, 2004 3:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Technobabble
I built WWII AFVs for many "jahren" too ?:D ... but I thought it was "schutzen" ... unfortunately most of my library is in storage in boxes in my garage ! :( ? :{ ? ?However, I do have a 2 book set handy, my old ROTC Recon Team buddy gave me for my B-day/Xmas ... SS: The Secret Archives ?Western Front, by Ian Baxter, Amber Books, 2003 ... pg. 146 ... "Schuzen" (u has an umlout [sp.?] ) or 'skirts' ... ? ? :;):
Author:  Mojarn Piett [ Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:46 am ]
Post subject:  Technobabble
The German dictionary I checked this with says sch?tzen = "to shield"; "to protect", as in Sch?tzenpanzerwagen (SPW).  I haven't heard about a skirt tank before.  :p

BTW, schutze (without the umlaut) is a rifleman.  :;):
Author:  vanvlak [ Wed Jun 16, 2004 8:10 am ]
Post subject:  Technobabble
Hi all,
and thanks for the response. So am I correct in tallying the votes as a victory for schutzen (with the umlaut)? :p
Seriously, thanks - was I right in saying that the Germans introduced these in WWII (around 1942), or was there some earlier use?
Author:  Legion 4 [ Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Technobabble
Yes, "Skirts" were first used probably in late '42 or early '43 on the Eastern Front. ?Usually you see them on Pzkpfw. IIIs and IVs and Assault Guns IIIs and IVs. IIRC, they were referred to by the Allies as side "skirts", but were obviously put there for extra "protection" to supplement the weaker armor points. ?Common words in military use sometimes get "mutated" ?... the "Skirts" were there for "Protection" ... ?:;):
Author:  vanvlak [ Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Technobabble
Thanks L4 - and everyone else.
Author:  Legion 4 [ Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Technobabble
Anytime E/Seer "V" ! :;):
Author:  Drasannar [ Fri Jul 02, 2004 11:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Technobabble
Sorry to butt in, but I happen to be German and to have served my time of compulsory military service in an armoured batallion of the Bundeswehr.

'Skirts' directly translated means Schuerzen (with an umlaut).
I am not perfectly certain about the term as applied to tanks, as the term we used (for what I believe is the modern day incarnation of what you are talking about) was "Kettenblenden", both heavy and light ones, the former covering the frontal third and the latter protecting the remainder of the tracks,(not sure about the appropriate term in English, but if you take a look at the tracks of a Leopard II you will probably recognize what I am referring to, and those of you with a military background will certainly come up with the proper English word).

I am almost certain that Schuetzen was never used to refer to those parts.
This judgement, however, does not originate in extensive knowledge of military history , but from a background (albeit basic, but augmented by the advantage of being a native speaker) in linguistics, which makes this ?kind of word-derivation seem rather unlikely/strange/impossible in this context (Particulary as there is a homophone which means "riflemen", as already noted, also with an umlaut by the way).

I *might* be wrong, as some words have *very* strange, and on the surface unlikely, etymologies, but I am fairly confident that this is not such a case (for one thing the term seems to be too recent for it's roots to have been obscured to such a degree (having been introduced around WW2, as it would seem, though it might of course date back to medieval barding etc, but I won't speculate on that as my knowledge of mounted warfare before the advent of the tank is practically nonexistant)).
Author:  Legion 4 [ Sat Jul 03, 2004 3:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Technobabble
Thanks "D" and welcome board. ?No, you did not butt in and your input is more than welcome ! ?I saw both German and Canadian "Leos" on "Reforger" '88 and I understand what you are talking about. ?I think the term "side skirts" was clearly a WWII term and may have evolved from an allied interperation. ?Or an old term no longer used in the military lexicon. ??There are many terms in military jargon that don't make sense when taken literally in the civilian translation. ?Especially an older term. ?But you speak German so I bow to your knowledge of the Language ! :D ??Many WWII terms are no longer used and replaced by more modern, updated words, or lost. ?I could give examples but it would much too involving. ?Plus language, German to English or vis versa, makes things more confusing. ?I remember when I was in Korea and asked my Korean friend what's the word for "Helicopter" in Korean ? ? She said "Hericopter"... ? ? I figured that there probably is no word for it in their language and they just used the English term ?! ? ?:;):
Author:  vanvlak [ Sat Jul 03, 2004 3:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Technobabble
Hi Drasannar, and welcome. Thanks for the information - I'll stick to Kettenblenden from now. There's no good term in Maltese - unless I called them 'pjanci ghall-ilqugh mal-genb tat-tank' - too much of a mouthful and more of a description than a name.
Oh, L4 - we call it a helikopter. :p The best term I've heard so far is a very unofficial Italian description of what they normally call an 'elicottero' as a 'frullavento' - literally, a whisk for wind. :laugh:
Author:  Legion 4 [ Sat Jul 03, 2004 3:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Technobabble
Language vs. technology ! :;):  To further confuse the discussion, in The book "Tank" (Macksey & Batchelor, 1970) the term for modern "skirting" on Tanks is "bazooka plate" (probably a UK military term).  In the US Army, we called them side skirts on our M1s.   :;):  But in most/all WWII military literature, they are referred to as "Side Skirts".  Just like the term Assault Rifle ... until 1944 with the German SG 44, the term did not exist.  Now most armies use what is known as an Assault Rifle ... M-16, AK-47, SA-80, G-36, etc., etc.  :;):
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/