So the guy who cuts my hair told me he was born in 1990. I thought, wow this guy probably has no idea who Kurt Cobain was. Whatever. Then I thought later, Epic 40k came out in 1997. Holy sh!t that was 17 years ago!!!

I know we had Armageddon, I think around 2004-5 in its peak, and even that feels like ancient history. But then I think about how I am still a huge fan of SM2/TL, and that came out in 1991! I still remember seeing AT in stores in 1988 even though I didnt play it till later.

It feel like Epic kind of has frozen in time while the rest of the world has flown by. Its amazing how this series of games has captured our imagination for so long, even though admittedly in my case it has come and gone at times. But here I am, still collecting, painting, playing when I can like it just came out yesterday.

Pretty crazy the influence this series of games has had on our lives, and how long for.

I will never forget when Jervis replied to an email I sent when he first mentioned he was going to start a playtesting forum for Epic A. I have to admit I was a little star-struck. Here was the guy who was responsible for for how much I dedicated myself to the 40k universe exchanging emails with me. I couldnt believe it or thank him enough. Then he proceeded to ruin Epic for me lol. Whatever I still got my old games.

Your right it does seem that epic in whatever incarnation has been around forever, I remember getting Adeptus Titanicus when it was first released and I've tried and collected for each version as they came along. The much derided third edition is still my favourite and the one I've had most fun playing. That being said I'm not blind to its shortcomings.

I too emailed Jervis when EA was announced and opinion on the prototype rules was looked for and I also received a nice long reply ensuring me that the E40k rules would not be drastically changed but just have a bit more detail added, well that didn't happen in the end but there you go.

The fact that this unsupported series of games is still around, played and much loved I believe is wonderful and I hope all versions continue in this vain, every group of players have their preferred play style so I don't see this changing anytime soon.

I think what has helped these games along more recently has been the excellent range of proxy models available from many manufactures which has kept interest and new armies flowing across the community as well as these very boards we all visit most days. There's nothing quite like sharing your latest modelling/painting project and recent games with fellow enthusiasts.

Long live epic in all its many guises.

_________________
Vanguard Miniatures

Link, http://vanguardminiatures.co.uk/

Stockist of:

Vanguard Miniatures
BattleGroup Helios
Onslaught Miniatures
Pyrkol Gaming Markers
Gregster's Lab
Microworld Games
Troublemaker Games

Hi!

Once E40k went under I stopped paying attention to GW as a company. Net Epic was already doing very well and had claimed the "old school niche" pretty firmly.

Jervis is a wonderful fellow. He was on the old net epic mailing list and posted a couple of times. I do feel for him though, he's in a compromising situation for the company he works for. After all that is how he makes his living, so all he can do is put a stoic face when certain games he's had a hand in don't do well. I would of thought he'd move on by now (like many others), but as long as it fulfills his real life needs its quite easy to tow the company lines (we all do it to different degrees in our own real life jobs anyway).

As moredakka mentions, the wealth of proxy models is truly a boon for us. I consider this nothing short of another "golden age" for epic. The tech for producing minis has improved enormously and with 3d printing coming of age the quality and possibilities are ever greater (and getting better and better). These things have permitted me to tackle projects I though improbable if not impossible, the primarchload grows because of this.

As for the rulesets? It doesn't really matter anymore. GW doesn't support it so fans can support which ever one suits their playstyle and more. It is very liberating in fact not to worry about them in regards to rules. Modify/change, make your own its all good as long as your enjoying it.

Like moredakka said "Long live epic in all its many guises. "

Amen that that, amen to that!

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules

Where are you getting these proxies from? I have gotten what looks like proxies in some lots before, but have no idea where they come from. And some were really well done. I think one was labeled otterware??

What were some of the things Jervis replied to about on Netepic? Did he support the game, or was he trying to argue as to why to get off it and play Epic 40k?

I am surprised if he was knew of net epic, then why there wasnt more of it in Epic A...

Hi!

I believe the forums makes a semantic distinction between "proxy" as in models obtained from companies like Exodus wars, Onslaught, dark realm miniatures, etc. Usable for epic but not necessarily just for it.

What you have mentioned is what most refer to as "forumware". Which are models made specifically for epic, but due to a cease and desist from GW such creators no longer offer them.

Also, to keep our esteemed forum "safe" from GW we are not allowed to post topics with to condone or promote such things.

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules

Hi!

I don't remember exactly, your talking about something at least a decade old or maybe even 12-13 years. I'd imagine the posts are still there in the Yahoo archive, although finding things there is horrid.

It was a "surprise" when he posted, since technically we didn't know he was a member. I say technically because as the list owner I probably approved his membership, but I rarely paid attention to that since that was the time we did revisions and too many people were joining. It was easy to miss a name.

Also, it was no "surprise" since I knew GW legal had been scoping us out for years already (we been reviewed many times).

Off the top of my head we were discussing some rule to be changed or some such and he gave his opinion on it. It was a short interaction without much ripples or waves. It was before the release of E:A, that much I remember. By that time most net epic fans didn't really care what GW was doing so there was no real conversation of "why" he was on our mailing list.

It was quickly forgotten and not many people even remember it.

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules

Hi!

To answer your other question, his interaction was courteous and to the point discussed. There was no mention of other game systems nor why we kept hanging on to the older systems.

Nor was there any mention of a future system nor what impact net epic should have on that.

As far as we were concerned, whatever happened to epic, it was never going back to SM2 or SM1, so there wasn't really anything to say in regards to that.

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules

Safe from what? I don't see how GW has any authority over anyone to prevent open discussion on anything. I see discussions on dakkadakka about fakes, and even specific chinese sellers for 40k copy cats. And those are straight copies.

If I was posting pics of some minis I made, that were copies of Epic Leman Russes, and selling them on here for $5 each, I can see GW getting a little upset. But if I said, I met this guy who makes great proxies for Leman Russes and GW got hissy over it, I would tell them to kiss my @ss. My opinion is my opinion.

Primarch's right I was referring to those companies listed who make stand in models usable with epic and not the much lamented forumware of old.

_________________
Vanguard Miniatures

Link, http://vanguardminiatures.co.uk/

Stockist of:

Vanguard Miniatures
BattleGroup Helios
Onslaught Miniatures
Pyrkol Gaming Markers
Gregster's Lab
Microworld Games
Troublemaker Games

Hi!

GW has (on many occasions, including big social media sites not just small ones), demanded the removal, lock or alteration of things it considers harmful to its IP, not limited to but including recasting and "forumware".

You are correct that other sites can and do engage in such conversations, but those have not yet felt the "sting" of GW legal.

Keep in mind the "otterman" you mentioned was on this site and that such conversations on THIS site lead to him getting a cease and desist order. Since then that particular subject is not one that is engaged in other than passing references to it. The cease and desist while not towards the owner of these forums (cybershadow), did occur on the site and to permit additional recurrences of that topic could incur in a cease and desist to the site for "aiding in the spread of IP infringement". This is well established pattern with plenty of judicial precedent. GW has done this on Facebook, ebay and many others.

All that said, that incident occurred before the now famous "chapter house verdict" which has varied implications for produced minis and accessories that either GW doesn't make or that someone could make "for use with" a GW game. While the verdict did not go totally "one way", it is generally considered a loss for GW since they can't block anyone making "compatible products". You can tell them to "take a hike", but coming up with the cash for defense is another thing, even chapter house needed "pro-bono" counsel to be able to fight against them. For most complying with a cease and desist is the most logical course of action.

Now, people can and do sell "forumware" on Taccoms, but that is usually reselling things obtained during the period that was openly done here. Selling one or two things is no biggie (I don't think anyone would notice), but once you start going bigger (entire lines of stuff or big sell offs), that could be a problem.

As of late the vibe here is that talking about it is okay (you see pictures of them all the time), but just don't use the site as a gateway to "advertise" such "products". After all if we like to site to discuss things we don't want it to get into trouble over this.

If you have any further questions on this point please PM Cybershadow. I am sure he will lay out the guidelines on this particular subject more fully as well as explain the "whys" of it.

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules

Just to pick up on this point, and clarify, there are various categories of 'proxy'.

- Proxy in its purest sense is a brand new mini and design, which can be used as a stand in for other units. For example, I use Exodus Guild bikers as Rough Riders. These are not only fine, but are actively encouraged. They provide minis that GW cant/wont, and supports smaller manufacturers at the same time, and encourages new designs and growth.

- People can make their own minis in their own homes. These scratch builds are also fine. There is nothing wrong with doing this.

- There are direct copies of GW designs in 6mm around. It would be pointless to deny this. There is a legal implication in the sale of these, but there is also a moral implication in them. We have a few manufacturers and companies on these boards, and while I dont deny that there are some excellent copies out there, they are still IP infringing. People are free to talk about these within certain limits. We request that pictures are avoided.

- Any links or sales are prohibited. Thats the line. At no point do I want to even invite the accusation that this site is somehow funded or supported by IP infringing minis. GW have in the past aggressively shut down sites which have a GW game title in the web address and a donate button. Just those two things have lead to a legal shut down of the entire site based on the accusation that it is profiting off of GW IP. That said, what happens outside the boundaries of this site is out of my control.

_________________
https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond.
https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.

It's weird to think of the things that were happening 11 years ago -
1) Last new Sisters of Battle models for WH40K
2) E:A
3) Birth of daughter, now almost 11 years old