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FREE RULEBOOKS AND CODEXES! http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=2901	Page 1 of 1

Author:	Gandalf the Grey [ Thu Jun 12, 2003 6:03 pm ]
Post subject:	FREE RULEBOOKS AND CODEXES!
Well, for those who don't know, and it is possible as I just discovered this, but I have found every freakin rulebook for Warhammer, Mordeim, 40k, and even Man O' War on Kaza. See ya.

Author:	Jimbo [ Thu Jun 12, 2003 9:15 pm ]
Post subject:	FREE RULEBOOKS AND CODEXES!
so where do you draw the line which crimes are okay by you and which are not you obviously feel it is okay to utilise copyrighted material without benefiting the author of those materials (regardless if they are a big business or an individual) what about burning the stuff onto CD and giving it to some friends what about burning the stuff onto CD and selling it on eBay what about not informing your insurance company of a small crash in your car what about hiking up an insurance claim what about speeding what about taking stuff from a gaming table what about taking stuff from a shop what about taking stuff from a child what about using violence to steal stuff where do you draw the line? which laws are okay to break and which are not? there is no such thing as a victimless crime, we all suffer in the end (from your example in either more expensive products or no products at all) The law is the law, if you wish to break it, that is your choice, but where do you draw the line. Copyright Law is a law, in the UK a serious breach can result in a prison sentence.

Author:	Gandalf the Grey [ Thu Jun 12, 2003 10:02 pm ]
Post subject:	FREE RULEBOOKS AND CODEXES!
you obviously feel it is okay to utilise copyrighted material without benefiting the author of those materials (regardless if they are a big business or an individual)

definately. ?so do many others. even if I were the only one I'd be okay with that.

what about burning the stuff onto CD and giving it to some friends

sure. they do it for me.

what about burning the stuff onto CD and selling it on eBay

Wouldn't bother, everyone can do it themselves.

what about not informing your insurance company of a small crash in your car

Sure.

what about hiking up an insurance claim

Never.

what about speeding

I drive a Mustang, so every chance I get on the interstate.

what about taking stuff from a gaming table

Never.

what about taking stuff from a shop

Sometimes when I was younger. ?But I also did much worse then that too.

what about taking stuff from a child

Hell no. How or why would you even ask that?

what about using violence to steal stuff

Of course not.

where do you draw the line?

I guess I don't. I see a curvy line.

which laws are okay to break and which are not?

I wouldn't hurt individuals, but give me a break? I am not going to shed a tear for using copies of GW's books from Kaza. ?Especially after just yesterday Mail Order told me the bitz that still owed me "wasn't a priority of there's." ?Yeah, that is a quote from Patrick.

there is no such thing as a victimless crime, we all suffer in the end (from your example in either more expensive products or no products at all)

I guess I don't care. ?It is going to happen anyway. ?It's like the Music Industry trying to prevent file sharing. ?I am a software developer, and so long as you make something that can be broken down to a 1 or a 0 easier to steal than buy, the only people who won't are the ones really really really feel it is wrong. Lets be honest, if it is cheaper for someone, they'll probably do it.

The law is the law, if you wish to break it, that is your choice, but where do you draw the line.

Well, maybe I shouldn't be so public about all this but I really don't care. ?I won't be making copies for anyone else, and if GW's lawyers come knocking at my door, I hope their cheap ones since stopping me won't stop the masses and it'll be a waste of money. Oh no, I see one morning I'll wake up to a SWAT team kicking down my door looking for copy-writed material.

Copyright Law is a law, in the UK a serious breach can result in a prison sentence.

I am sure it's the same in the US. ?There are bigger things going on here. ?I'd rather, or hope, law enforcement is focusing on Murder, Child Abuse, pillage, etc. ?Say what you want, but I am really not part of that problem.

Author:	primarch [ Fri Jun 13, 2003 2:15 am ]
Post subject:	FREE RULEBOOKS AND CODEXES!
Hi! I was wondering when someone would bring up Kazaa. Yup, you can get everything and more there, but a word of advice.... ....NEVER talk about this sort of thing in an open forum. You never know whose watching. Primarch

Author:	signius [ Fri Jun 13, 2003 3:11 am ]
Post subject:	FREE RULEBOOKS AND CODEXES!
I am not the free "F*** the world" spirit that Gandalf is. Nor am I the "law is black and white" upright citizen that Jimbo is. I am in the middle on this subject. There is currently too much piracy going on. Trading is not piracy. The RIAA and the MPAA, in this country, have been lying about economic losses and the effect it is supposed to be having on the industry. Is it illegal? Yes and no. Is it wrong? So long as you are not selling it for profit, I do not believe it is. We can go round and round on the right to exchange personal property vs copyright infringement, intellectual property vs actual property. This has been going on as long as I can remember. No one just seems to have a memory. First it was the cassette recorder cutting into record sales. (what's a record, you say?) Then it was the VCR cutting into movie sales. Then it was the CDR cutting into music and movie sales. This is the same old arguement I have been hearing my whole life. The same cry of an industry trying to maintiain control. It is not the first or last time these issues will come up. There, I have said my peace. Thank you and good night.

Author:	TuffSkull [ Fri Jun 13, 2003 10:40 am ]
Post subject:	FREE RULEBOOKS AND CODEXES!
And here we have the exact reason why AoFK will never be released as a pay for PDF as so many people are requesting.......... I agree - Kazaa and similar will always be around. There will always be piracy. I'm not going to claim that I'm an imaculate specimen of a law obiding citizen 100% of the time, we all have our moments, but openly flaunting such things aren't going to get you any friends Gandalf and have probably lost you a deal of respect from Jimbo if not myself and others. Just a friendly note for future reference.

Author:	Gandalf the Grey [ Fri Jun 13, 2003 4:27 pm ]
Post subject:	FREE RULEBOOKS AND CODEXES!
openly flaunting such things aren't going to get you any friends Gandalf and have probably lost you a deal of respect from Jimbo if not myself and others.

So be it. I could care less.

Author:	MaksimSmelchak [ Fri Jun 13, 2003 4:56 pm ]
Post subject:	FREE RULEBOOKS AND CODEXES!
I would really prefer that discussions like this be held privately by E-mail or in Yahoo groups, because GW lawyers could very well take exception to this and pursue legal routes to shutting down this forum. Personally, I take the ethical route on most of this although I would like to note that private use (as opposed to commercial sales or distribution for profit) of some items is very legal in many countries, especially for OOP items or for a service no longer provided. Gandalf-the-Grey, So be it. I could care less.

The people here are cool. You might want to take a more moderate approach to them. Jimbo is our righteous outspoken paladin, but he is also an accomlished modeller, a great member of our community, and undeserving of disrespect.

I'd like to see both of you stick around since I feel you both have a lot to contribute and have enjoyed both of your company. I mention this because it sounds like words approximating "fighting words" are being exhanged or are close to being exchanged and I don't want to see hard feelings spread around here.

Shalom and best regards to all,
Maksim-Smelchak.

Author:	Gandalf the Grey [ Fri Jun 13, 2003 5:11 pm ]
Post subject:	FREE RULEBOOKS AND CODEXES!
Hey MaksimSmelchak, Jimbo, Tuffskull, and whoever else: Look I am not picking a fight. I jumped in here to let whoever cared that they could find .pdf files for the rules and codexes that they were there, as someone told me from another forum. I don't care who uses that info or if they even bother. Since I posted that I've gotten six emails and pms asking how to get kaza, so I think it was worth it. That is freedom of speech and the GW lawyers can't prevent me from sharing that info, nor prosecute me for it. When I say so be it, I am just saying that you have your opinion and I have mine, and no I really don't care if they differ. Lets be realistic, you guys are pretty cool but this is a message board. If I never make another post here my life is still going to go on just like it is now. If I never regain their 'respect' my life is still going to go on just like it is now. I-really-don't-care. It doesn't bother me.

Author:	MaksimSmelchak [ Fri Jun 13, 2003 5:41 pm ]
Post subject:	FREE RULEBOOKS AND CODEXES!
Gandalf-the-Grey, Look I am not looking to pick a fight. I jumped in here to let whoever cared that they could find *.pdf files for the rules and codexes that they were there, as someone told me from another forum. I don't care who uses that information or if they even bother to do so. Since I posted that I've gotten six E-mails and PMs asking how to get to Kaza, so I think it was worth it. That is freedom of speech and the GW lawyers can't prevent me from sharing that information, nor prosecute me for it.

Amen to you having your opinions and other people having theirs, but...

I don't care who uses that information or if they even bother to do so.

I do care, because GW has already shut down sites for violating their IP and is now cancelling auctions on E-bay in selective cases in an effort, it appears, to set examples. I emphacize again that I want to avoid attracting negative attention from the "business people" at GW who would most definitely take umbrage at this. Losing a free Yahoo group is no big deal, but htis site is a pay one that takes time and effort from its' members. I'm not willing to scrafice that to get free copies of GW products even if I don't like GW's business practices much in the first place.

Since I posted that I've gotten six E-mails and PMs asking how to get to Kaza, so I think it was worth it.

I think that plenty of GW people would now say that they've lost six people worth of profit and that this site is now a bleeding leak for them and MUST be shut down.

That is freedom of speech... ?

Some people think that freedom of speech means anarchy or COMPLETE freedom of speech. Gandalf, I don't think you're one of those, but freedom of speech does have limits. Slander is one of the words lawyers use for when freedom of speech has hit its' limits.

GW lawyers can't prevent me from sharing that information, nor prosecute me for it.

While GW lawyers probably won't prevent or prosecute you as an individual, they will most definitely shut down this site if they think it is in their best interest. In that case, while I'm not being personally prosecuted, I will most definitely LOSE out.

Shalom and best regards to Everyone,
Maksim-Smelchak.

Author:	Gandalf the Grey [ Fri Jun 13, 2003 5:58 pm ]
Post subject:	FREE RULEBOOKS AND CODEXES!
Maksim, GW cannot shut this site down for sharing information about KAZA. If you posted things like point values, their pictures, etc etc then yes they have a case. They cannot shut you down for mentioning KAZA, Games Workshop, Free all in the same sentence. Slander is when you say something that is either untrue or cannot be verified, that hurts the public image of someone's character. If I posted a message saying GW lawyers are the fatest people around, legally they can prove that is slander if they are not fat, and I have spoken untruthfully about them in a bad way. That can be taken to court. If I said I THINK GW Lawyers are the fatest people around, then my opinion is what would be under scruitny, not what I said, since I didn't say it as a fact. This site doesn't officially promote file sharing, or the use of illegal GW copies, but it does have a message board pretty much open to the public. The only thing that has happened here is that we've acknowledged that those files exist and where you can get them. That is not illegal. Hey, you can find cocaine in Columbia. Now does that make me a drug trafficer? I see some of you are uneasy talking about this so I'll refrain from posting messages that will stress you out. I personally could care less about GW and what they think of me but who cares.

Author:	Gandalf the Grey [ Fri Jun 13, 2003 6:07 pm ]
Post subject:	FREE RULEBOOKS AND CODEXES!
Man, this isn't the first time I have heard about GW being the big bad wolf. My site uses more GW pics than any I know, I even have the link posted under my name in the Playtesting Vault, and I haven't heard a peep from them. IF they did email me can say take the pics down I would, but then I would also replace the images with 'GW wont let me post this' everywhere. I know I know, you guys really like this forum and I do repect that, I guess I am a little in awe about worry about a toy soldier company. Maksim, you really have nothing to worry about.

Author:	Gandalf the Grey [ Fri Jun 13, 2003 6:20 pm ]
Post subject:	FREE RULEBOOKS AND CODEXES!
I am sure most of you will read this, but incase you don't go there, read what Hellion of G?emes just posted in the playtesting forum: http://uk.games-workshop.com/40kuniv....RCHIVE= Now that was ballsy. Kind of related to the ethics of using illegal copies, but this was posted on GW's site! Haha.

Author:	TuffSkull [ Fri Jun 13, 2003 7:15 pm ]
Post subject:	FREE RULEBOOKS AND CODEXES!
Gandalf, Dont want to get bogged down in ethics etc, but just wanted to make sure we're clear: I hold nothing against you for any of the above messages and was not reading anything as "Fighting talk". I may not agree with what Kaza promotes and to a lesser extent may not agree with you for taking advantage of such things, but I dont hold it against you for doing so - it is a sorely tempting oppertunity, but after spending a few years working on my own project, I find myself thinking "what if that happened to me, after 3 years work I'd be screwed, so I'm not going to lend my suport to it". And thats that, its my decision not to, just as it is your decision to take full advantage of it, and its not my place to try and impose my will. As you say, its just opinions and the fact that they are opposing means very little. My original message in this thread was meant purely as a friendly warning that others may take it more seriously & that such info whilst commonly known is still frowned upon by "the powers that be". No hard feelings - Each to their own!

Author:	CyberShadow [ Fri Jun 13, 2003 7:32 pm ]
Post subject:	FREE RULEBOOKS AND CODEXES!
OK, I am going to close this thread. This is not due to censorship, over-reacting, reading anything extra into the topic or being on any particular side or agreeing with one viewpoint over the other. It is for two reasons: This thread goes fairly close to the line of what could be accepted by GW and others. This material does exist 'out there' and no-one would deny that existance. However, by broadcasting the fact that a person owns it, they could (and I am in no way pointing fingers at this point) be mis-interpreted as advertising the fact, and opening the way for others to contact them for copies. Again, I am in no way accussing anyone of this behaviour or action. Secondly, this has a tenuous link to Gothic or Epic, and not directly relating to these games or minis. I realise that this is a 'general' forum. I hope that everyone understands this action. I rarely close threads, and I think that this points made are valid and interesting, and so I will close and not delete. If anyone has an issue with this, or would like to chat to me about these issues, drop me a PM. In addition, and again I am not accussing or pointing at anyone, the board rules state that no infringement of copyright is tolerated here. This was not strictly happening here, but I wanted to point it out anyway. Thanks guys.

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