Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 29 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

What's the reason for game turn limits?

 Post subject: Re: What's the reason for game turn limits?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:10 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 9624
Location: Manalapan, FL
MephistonAG wrote:
It worth noting that the game Epic A itself doesn't impose a turn limit, it's the Grand Tournament scenario that imposes a minimum of 3 turns, 4 and possibly more if the dice allow.


Mephiston is so correct on this count. The scenario in EA is what determines length. It's optimized for competitive tournament play (symetric objectives, forces, and a strict turn limit so it can usually be played in under 2 hours YMMV tm). It's pretty elegant in meeting those objectives I feel.

I find myself also in complete agreement with Kyrt however on the suspension of disbelief getting wrecked a bit with how T3 ends up in the GT games. The descriptions of mad dashes of single artillery units to capture a blitz objective in T3 are one of the most annoying parts of the GT for "regular" play IMHO. I really wish there was a concept of a "scoring unit" somehow built in but how to do it without crumbling under it's own weight escapes me. As I said earlier, it is a tourney optimized scenario so it can be excused and provides a good standard basis for testing but it's old and boring to play, (again YMMV). It's terrible for my enjoyment when I'm playing for fun. The way units sprint forward outside of any somewhat "realistic" tactical sense as you don't have to worry about what happens T4 if you do it right and win the game there just ruins it for me and feels completely "gamey".

note: a grain of salt here as we are afterall playing a game set in a universe where giant city sized spaceships with the power to destroy entire planets fly through the vastness of the galaxy but we choose to fight on the ground with chainsaws, must not be under stated ;D.

But as Mephiston points out, play a different scenario then (which I do). :)

edit: Personally I wish there was an additional objective used to support the concept of successfully keeping your army together in one piece. This is a place where for instance BFG excels as the concept of throwing your fleet away to meet XYZ objective (unless that's spelled out in the scenario) is often going to loose you the game on points. Pyrrhic victories historically lose people wars-your army needs to be there for more than that one battle. I wish there was an EA concept of a "crippled" formation, one that's there and still in the fight but through battlefield attrition is barely functional and therefore there's a VP awarded to the most "together" army left on the table at the end. Perhaps somehow based on BMs or lost units points? [shrugs] smarter people than myself probably have tried and failed...

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: What's the reason for game turn limits?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:23 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:41 am
Posts: 79
Location: UK
I've played a few games "to the death" and there are a few things I've observed.

The first is that in the later turns it can just stop being fun for the losing player. Some sort of additional "withdraw in good order" objective might help here.

The second is that some armies just don't balance after 4-5 turns as they're not suited to a war of attrition. Those small marine formations on key objective just get chewed up by the ork infantry horde when they finally get into position. I suppose this ties in fluff-wise but can make the elite armies play very differently.

At the end of the day though, its your game of toy soldiers and play it any way you please ;D


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: What's the reason for game turn limits?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:02 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:27 pm
Posts: 47
Location: Austria
Thank you for your input, now I am really looking forward to the next game!

_________________
My tabletop-blog (in German): http://menofleadandplastic.blogspot.co.at


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: What's the reason for game turn limits?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 1:43 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5483
Location: London, UK
As far as I am aware, battles usually fall into several phases
- Campaign, where political and logistical considerations happen
- Approach, where troops manoeuver into position
- 'Battle', where troops try to achieve objectives / orders that are given to them (no orders = no movement . .)
- Withdraw / Pursuit, which may last a brief time or can take weeks (eg Prussian army destruction 1806)
- Return to campaigning under revised circumstances

In game terms all rule-sets naturally gravitate to the exciting bit, ignoring the reasons for the battle or the aftermath. Hence the suspension of disbelief, which I also loath. So, many years ago, I created a set of simple rules that covered these two aspects by changing the quality of an army over the course of a series of battles. IMHO this would be ideal for an alternative form of 'tournament' . . .

  1. Players define the size of their standing army, eg 4000 points worth
  2. Prior to each battle, each player decides how many battlefield locations (objectives) he intends to control, which in turn determines the type and number of formations he can use from his list using a pre-defined table.
  3. The winner of the battle is determined through the actual control of these objectives. Both players my attempt to get reinforcements / reserves to assist them during the game at the cost of awarding their opponents objective points. The player with the largest number of objective points in the winner of the battle
  4. After the battle destroyed formations are returned to the "standing army" in the lowest form (eg Raw) while survivors are returned in their state at the start of the battle. Some of these survivors may be upgraded (veteran, elite etc)
  5. The winner of the campaign / competition is the player with the highest value army

In E:A terms we do not recognise 'Raw', 'Veteran' or 'Elite', but we do have upgrades; So for example, the winner could be given 300 upgrade points, the loser 100 upgrade points, to be banked or used as required for the following game.

(Note, these are the bare principles; there are a lot of other elements that would need to be covered to make this work for an E:A tournament and I suspect that 3 games might be too few, making this difficult to do in a single day)


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: What's the reason for game turn limits?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:37 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:34 pm
Posts: 611
I really like the concept of this Ginger. It sounds a lot like a campaign weekend, which isn't a bad thing.

I think that a final score which is based on how much you one your games by plus your troops remaining would be great.

For instance a person who lost 3 games, drew 1 and won 1, but kept 70% of their force, would loose to someone who won 4 games and lost 1, but only kept 50% of their army. You could simply assign every 100pts of your army a VP value, and it should work.

I've always enjoyed these kinds of games. I really like where you can move your forces around a map and decide where to apply the most pressure, but then you're getting in a fairly heavy long running campaign.

_________________
Check out my youtube channel for Tutorials, Battle reports and other stuff in both 6mm and 28mm

www.youtube.com/user/ManticMoments


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: What's the reason for game turn limits?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 2:35 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5483
Location: London, UK
I have always thought that this would provide a dramatically different game as people would normally have have to balance the last minute objective grab with preserving stuff for the next encounter. In the context of a swiss tournament it could be quite interesting.

The main drawback to this is the need to record the army list in such a way that variations in formation upgrades (and possibly new formations) can easily be recorded and verified. This would inevitably take time, which is normally very limited in a tournament style weekend.

The other issue is that different lists and formations have different numbers of potential upgrades. While we can allow people to buy new formations, these need to be completely removed when they are destroyed (like the upgrades to original formations that are destroyed) which could be tricky to enforce. Also, destroying these additional formations means that the effects will not be balanced throughout the tournament.

There would also need to be certain restrictions - for example titans would need to be excluded and probably A/c as well


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: What's the reason for game turn limits?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 3:06 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 9624
Location: Manalapan, FL
I'd think a small but significant points boost to someone keeping their army in good shape last round would suffice,no? After all, the next battle isn't always going to be with the exact same troops and force org. The boost represents less pressure on strategic reserves on the front. Imperfect and not completely realistic but good enough for government work I'd say ;D

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: What's the reason for game turn limits?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 3:31 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5483
Location: London, UK
In a campaign context, the main benefit is keeping the army in being for the next engagement. Generals had to be able to know when to push on regardless, and when the battle was lost and the main effort had changed to trying to save the army.
  • For a proper pseudo-campaign, played corner to corner across a small grid (5x5, 6x6 etc) where each square contains a style of terrain, the battles are between those forces that bump into each other; the losing force and all dead formations are returned to the owners home city. Players may fight pyric victories, but the few surviving formations will be unlikely to hold the terrain so dearly won.
  • in a weekend tournament context, the armies would use the same formations throughout the tournament, though they may alter in terms of the number of updates that they have; so the actual value of each army will change. Players will still need to try to avoid formations being destroyed which will potentially diminish their value

Neither approach is perfect, but the whole idea is to reduce the 'last minute objective grab' syndrome that pervades all rules, purely because there is no imperative to preserve the forces past the end of the game.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: What's the reason for game turn limits?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:08 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36947
Location: Ohio - USA
Well you got to sleep, eat and %^$#, etc. sometime ... ^-^

_________________
Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: What's the reason for game turn limits?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:24 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 9624
Location: Manalapan, FL
Aye, is that shit your troop's taking "a dump for victory"? :)

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: What's the reason for game turn limits?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:54 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:49 am
Posts: 5569
Turn limits are there to limit playing time; most wargames aim for a maximum of about 2 hours playing time to allow them to be finished in one go.

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: What's the reason for game turn limits?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 11:28 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:17 am
Posts: 1632
I had worked on my own game for awhile with 6mm fantasy. I was having a buddy play against me to test the armies out. My strategy was pretty good and i ended up giving him a nice smack on the butt. The game was over after the 4th turn i was the obvious victor, but we decided to keep going. He had a caster mounted on a horse so he could get around quick. He proceeded to run circles around my formations that had to wheel and turn to try and get to him, he just whittled my formations down. I believe the reason for turns is too keep the game balanced and not have it fall to what i had to deal with when playing my friend. Because i believe a single caster going up bunch of formations having his army routed and destroyed would flee the field of battle, or my formations would break ranks and encircle the caster so he could no longer run.

I believe this is part of the why behind turns, other reasons would be for night is coming and the forces are retiring the field of battle.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: What's the reason for game turn limits?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:10 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36947
Location: Ohio - USA
Back in the day, when we used to play once a week or every two weeks. It took 1hr to set up terrain, choose forces, etc., 3-4 hrs to play. Another 1 hr to take down, etc. ... We stopped gaming a while back. As as much as we liked it ... real life got in the way. Our "Happy Times" were '91-'98 ... Otherwise right now, I have just been collecting and painting all my forces ... Until I'm recalled to the mothership ... ^-^

_________________
Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: What's the reason for game turn limits?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 11:15 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:34 pm
Posts: 611
Yeah, I find it so easy to spend about an hour setting up and deploying my army. It doesn't help when I get into a tournament and I suddenly have to do it really quickly.

_________________
Check out my youtube channel for Tutorials, Battle reports and other stuff in both 6mm and 28mm

www.youtube.com/user/ManticMoments


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 29 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net