Dirstside and/or Stargrunt II |
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Cuban Commissar
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Post subject: Dirstside and/or Stargrunt II  Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 12:05 am |
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| Purestrain |
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Location: Colorado, USA
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Anyone else have any experience with these rules sets.
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primarch
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Post subject: Dirstside and/or Stargrunt II Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 1:40 am |
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Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
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Hi!
Yup!
SGII, is perhaps the "best" 28mm tactical game out there. Its very realistic and you win by using tactics very similar of what you'd do in real life.
Is it for you?
Some points:
1. It has NO points system. You make the scenarios yourself and play. In todays point driven games world this has put many off. It does foster a "goal" oriented approach since killing for vicotry points isn't the main issue, but trying to complete your mission is. Depends on what side of the fence you are.
2. Its REAL sci-fi, not science fantasy like 40k. Troops act and behave like their modern day counterparts. No line them up and march across the board. You do this is SGII, you die, like in real life. Supression, cover fire and terrain use are key. No uber-heroes here.
3. It uses polyhedral dice in a nice opposing role mechanic. I like it, but some just like using one die type.
Dirtside II
This is a 6mm game, more like epic in that sense. It keeps the realism of SGII, but it has some major points:
1. It HAS a construction system that is points based. You can virtually make any unit you wish with it. Very open. It represents many "future" weapon and defense systems.
2. It uses a chit base system for damage. In eyes of some this is the only flaw of an otherwise flawless system. There are internet based die roll substitution systems.
3. Its alternating activation of platoon sized contingents.
IMO, Dirtside II is perhaps the best 6mm game out there, its not sci-fantasy, but the systen is robust enough to accomodate it. I have made a file of conversions to use epic figures in DSII. It needs updating for the newer units, but its pretty complete with alternate rules stemming from DSII rules.
You cant lose trying them out. They are cheap and good games.
Primarch
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Dirstside and/or Stargrunt II Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 5:18 am |
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Location: Ohio - USA
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Yes, DSII is very good for all the reasons Primarch mentioned. If I wasn't playing Epic, I'd be playing DS.
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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Mojarn Piett
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Post subject: Dirstside and/or Stargrunt II Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 9:33 am |
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A couple of other points:
1) Neither DS nor SG are very fast to play as the mechanics are quite detailed
2) Even though SGII has no point system DSII does have one, which is easy enough to adapt to the SG.
3) SG discourages the use of vehicles. Since I am a treadhead this is a bone of contention for me.
4) Personally I think they could have come up with a better weapon vs. armor system than "roll a few dice to get the armor value for this turn". Then again, I am a rabid fan of penetration value vs. armor value systems so I am obviously biased.
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I don't know and I let who care. -J.S.
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Jimbo
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Post subject: Dirstside and/or Stargrunt II Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 10:40 am |
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| Quote (primarch @ 28 2004 Jan.,00:40) | | IMO, Dirtside II is perhaps the best 6mm game out there, its not sci-fantasy, but the systen is robust enough to accomodate it. |
and I believe that my name is in the credits...
When I started in Epic (back with Space Marine) I actually used a simplified version of Dirtside I which is probably why I liked the simplicity of Epic40K._________________ Jimbo
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Tas
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Post subject: Dirstside and/or Stargrunt II Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 11:12 am |
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| Quote (Jimbo @ 28 2004 Jan.,18:40) | | and I believe that my name is in the credits... |
 So it is! I never noticed before... 
They are both very good games which I have played many times.
I agree with the above comments, and think they are an excellent combination of playability and realism.
The points issue for SG is easily overcome and we had our own. Plus we had standard TO&Es for different companya dn unit types, so you could only bolt on standard units, ot min-max 40k style. It was our way, with 75% of player ex or serving military.
Vehicles in SG- I thought were discouraged in that in the game scale you dont normally get mroe than 2-4 vehicles crammed in there. I can see the 'treadhead' point of view, but thought it was a good simulaiton. We used to play quick draw Panzerknacker games with them and found them OK too.
DS2 can bog down quickly (if you let it), and you need to have all your vehicles ready to go before you get to the game. We usually ahd scenarios and so forth so that worked well.
The morale system is common between them and works well. The use of different dice gets a bit of getting used to, but is worth it IMO.
Delighted to address any specific issues you may have.
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Tas
My General blog: http://tasmancave.blogspot.com/
My VSF Blog: http://pauljamesog.blogspot.com/
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Mojarn Piett
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Post subject: Dirstside and/or Stargrunt II Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 12:15 pm |
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| Quote (Tas @ 28 2004 Jan.,10:12) | | Vehicles in SG- I thought were discouraged in that in the game scale you dont normally get mroe than 2-4 vehicles crammed in there. I can see the 'treadhead' point of view, but thought it was a good simulaiton. We used to play quick draw Panzerknacker games with them and found them OK too. |
I know the arguments against the use of vehicles in that scale, and they even make sense. It's just that I _like_ to have my gaming board crawling with tanks. 
The morale system is common between them and works well. The use of different dice gets a bit of getting used to, but is worth it IMO.
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I must agree on the morale issue. The system both games use is the best i've seen.
As for the combat system, I like that of the GROPOS from the folded Agents of Gaming. Even though it is undoubtedly slow.
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I don't know and I let who care. -J.S.
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Dirstside and/or Stargrunt II Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 6:31 pm |
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That is why we went to "Hybrid" rules, taking tidbits from many games and rules, though strongly favor using much of SM1. ?We think the SM1 TO&Es, Off Board Support, Scenario Generation, etc., etc. are all very good. ?Combat Results Rules vary but we are looking at the E:A system ... it seems to have a lot of good points. ?The SM1 Combat Charts would actually make good 40K rules IMO ...  ?Almost Anything would be an improvment over that system ... IMO of course ! ? ?
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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Cuban Commissar
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Post subject: Dirstside and/or Stargrunt II Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 7:12 pm |
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| Purestrain |
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Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 4:32 am
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Location: Colorado, USA
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Hey Guys,
Thanks for the replys. I have played DSII and I think it is a awesome game. I did unfortuantely run into someone that abused the system and that gave me a bad feeling for the game. It wasn't a game problem it was a minmaxer being given a flexible game freindly rule system.
His army was composed of nothing but 1 vehicle platoons of size 1 or 2 grav dune buggies with DFGs on them. Well that was alot of fun.
I haven't experienced SGII yet. I am reading the rules and they seem very detailed. I worried that the game would bog down with so much rolling and tracking. Either that or the # of units you can field is really low. What size battles to you play with?
It seems from your responses that the game plays smoothly, but maybe a little slower. It that true?
Would you guys be willing to have some ideas boucned of you for some 40K conversion to SGII?
Please let me know. Thanks.
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Tas
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Post subject: Dirstside and/or Stargrunt II Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 11:05 pm |
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| Quote (Cuban Commissar @ 29 2004 Jan.,03:12) | | What size battles to you play with? ? |
We used to play every fortnight at a Club, so got used to the rules pretty well. Playing that frequently we typcially got 2 full games in in a 5ish hr period. Not many smoke breaks, coffee to be drunk at the table There are detailed rules for most situations, but you dont need to know them all, so it runs well.
Game sizes were typically 5 squads +/- 2ish per side (reinforced platoon actions, maybe a tank or 2 per side).
One day we played a Battalion action on a 24x6' foot board with 12 players (for a club Open Day). It was AWESOME! I'll see if I can g\dig out any pics! It had a whole company mounted up in Hover APCs and outrider Hovertanks (you would have loved it Mojarn!-Go Treadheads!).
I think there are 40k conversions somehwer out there o the ether already, but dont know where. There are some good SG forums at Yahoo- well, there used to be.
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Tas
My General blog: http://tasmancave.blogspot.com/
My VSF Blog: http://pauljamesog.blogspot.com/
My ECW Blog: http://declaresir.blogspot.com/
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primarch
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Post subject: Dirstside and/or Stargrunt II Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 11:59 pm |
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Hi!
Holy cow, Jimbo! You are in the DSII book. Sweet!
Well you can feel proud of being part of making that book, its the most used non-GW book I own.
DSII is one of the major inspirations of my Heresy rules, I always loved DSII morale rules.
Primarch
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Cuban Commissar
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Post subject: Dirstside and/or Stargrunt II Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 6:17 am |
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Tas,
I found a couple of sites but they where for 40K second edition. ?I was hoping for a more current set.
by the way that battle sounds awesone any pics you got would be really cool.
Well let me ask two questions to the group.
1. how would you rate teh imperial heavy bolter, heavy weapon or big SAW?
2. ?Rules question: if I have ?apistol and a sword would I get two shifts of the die?
Thanks
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Dirstside and/or Stargrunt II Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 6:29 am |
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A Heavy Bolter is more like a US Mk.19 or USSR AGS-17 Grenade Launcher... at least from the pics and fluff. ? ? ?
And the second question - carry 2 pistols... leave the sword at home over the Mantle! 
_________________
Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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Mojarn Piett
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Post subject: Dirstside and/or Stargrunt II Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 8:10 am |
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1) I'd say a heavy Bolter is a SAW for Space Marines who can just happily charge while blasting away with it and a hevy weapon for normal grunts.
2) I'd say yes, as I assume any modifiers are cumulative unless stated otherwise.
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I don't know and I let who care. -J.S.
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primarch
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Post subject: Dirstside and/or Stargrunt II Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 11:35 pm |
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Hi!
I dont remember where I have seen them, but aren't there 40k weapon conversions for SGII?
Primarch
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