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Shadow Scorpions 3000pts

Jeridian

Post subject: Shadow Scorpions 3000pts

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:01 pm

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Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:15 am
Posts: 461
Location: UK

Hi, I've been interested in Epic since 3rd Ed (though dispised that math's system). Since then I've managed to get 1 game against a very nicely painted IG army with Epic Armageddon (a very good gaming system, IMO).

Couldn't find an army list section, so here's my potential Tournament list:

Tactical- 6xTactical. 3xRhino. 1xSupreme Commander. 1xHunter.
Unfortunately this is the BTS objective too, can't see a way around this without making other formations points sinks.

Tactical- 6xTactical. 3xRhino. 1xHunter.

Tactical- 6xTactical. 3xRhino. 1xHunter.

Tactical- 6xTactical. 1xChaplain. 1xDreadnought.

Deploy normally, Garrison force, Thunderhawk drop- I like tactical flexibility.

Terminator- 4xTerminator. 1xLibrarian.

Deploy normally, Garrison, Teleport, Thunderhawk drop- again the more options the better.

Predator- 4xAnnihilator.

Predator- 4xDestructor.

Thunderhawk.

Thunderhawk.

Total 3000pts

I've done some research on winning SM list in Epic, and have this to say:

4xWarhound Titans

I'm a purist, Titans are not Chapter Armoury vehicles, nor do SM Chapters have Titans permanently attached to them. Plus it's insulting to SM's to need big metal brother to bail them out, ?

Ground-based Marine forces are poor, air assault is were it's at.

Marines are a tough army, steep learning curve, etc.

I can't fault this, having little experience- but I know Marines are a tough army, you can't just stroll out in front of your enemy and roll the better dice as in 40k.

And to this I say- great, just what I want. I'm a stickler for underdog armies, for taking something out of the ordinary, for having to be better than my opponent, not just have a better army list (though often I'm not so lose).

And also as proof I collect Space Marines not because they are the most common, percieved easiest 40k army, but because I like the background. I have SM's in BFG too, and their reputedly even worse.

So, what do you reckon? Any glaring mistakes?

Sidenote: Rules question, Assault- can Firefight hits only affect units not in base contact, and Close Combat hits only affect units in base contact?

I ask this, because say I have an Assault formation (4 units) and it charges a huge Ork formation of say 15 units-

1) if this ruling is true, if all the Assault units are in base contact- a large portion of the Ork formation can't do anything.

2) if this ruling is false, the entire Ork formation gets to shoot the crap out of them if in base contact or not.

As you can see, there's likely to be two wildly different outcomes, one with the Assault formation winning, the other with the Assault formation dying.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Shadow Scorpions 3000pts

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:06 pm

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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire

Sidenote: Rules question, Assault- can Firefight hits only affect units not in base contact, and Close Combat hits only affect units in base contact?

Nah, the hits can affect either type of target, sorry.

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Jeridian

Post subject: Shadow Scorpions 3000pts

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:43 pm

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Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:15 am
Posts: 461
Location: UK

Agreed on the Chaplain. But I'm a stickler for tradition- for now the Chaplain stays with his Battle Company, the Librarian leading a non-Battle Company force.

Battle reports, probably few and far between.

My first game was against IG, now this is all from memory from a long time ago:

My list similar to this but with:

Devastator Unit instead of Rhino-less Tactical.

Scouts and Assault instead of Predator and a few other gubbins.

His list:

Big Infantry Company

10xLeman Russ, with Vanquisher.

10xLeman Russ, with Vanquisher.

1xBandblade

1xDeathstrike Missile

3xArtillery

3xArtillary

Maybe more?

First thing I noticed was a severe lack of AA. He's learnt his lesson since.

So turn 1 and 2 my Thunderhawks have aerial superiority, using it to destroy the Deathstrike before it can shoot and harassing the Artillery so that it can't shoot.

My Scouts and Dev's get pummeled in a city in the board centre- certainly learnt I can't go toe-to-toe with two IG Tank Companies.

Having learnt from the Scouts and Dev's my Tacticals try to stay out of range and/or out of sight.

Around turn 3 I've manouevered my Tacticals along the right flank, behind a hill- a Tank Company has moved to open up on them.
Somehow (i.e. without an in-depth pre-plan) I've got the Terminators down with 2-3 Tacticals dismounted from Rhino's and engineered it so that my Thunderhawks land as the last formation (so don't get shot up) discourging Assault Marines. This combined battering finishes off the Tank Company, whilst leaving my force hidden from view by a hill to the rest of the IG.

I'll probably never be able to pull that off again, especially now that he'll be stocking AA and more wary- but I think that's how Marines are supposed to beat larger armies.

Also being objective orientated I'm likely to win a game whilst my opponent has the numerical and firepower superiority- which is fine by me,

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Ginger

Post subject: Shadow Scorpions 3000pts

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:53 pm

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Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5483
Location: London, UK

Check out this thread for a more detailed answer on CC and FF hits, and also for other pointers.

I would tend to trade one of the Pred formations for an upgraded Devastator formation to shoot your opponent - it is more resiliant for similar firepower. Put the supreme commander in to split the BTS and supreme commander, or add the Librarian from the termies for extra FF power.

As Hena says, put a chaplain in the termies - it is easier to use and Termies work best in CC - though I understand the "purist" approach you can think of him leading the entire company from the air before getting committed himself

If my maths is right, you are 50 points short, so add another commander to one of the formations.

Finally, consider converting one of the three Hunters to 3x Razorbacks for additional resiliance to three formations (yes you can add a single Razorback to a formation - it is added first, and then Rhinos are added to provide transport for the other units (leaving a Rhino with only one unit - see FAQ on this).

Consider teleporting the termies on turn two or landing by THawk on turn one somewhere to get Crossfire, and keep formations within support range ?of each other to counterbalance the superior numbers.

Good luck and have fun

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Shadow Scorpions 3000pts

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:56 pm

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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire

Where abouts are the two of you from?

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Tiny-Tim

Post subject: Shadow Scorpions 3000pts

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:01 pm

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Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:32 pm
Posts: 4893
Location: North Yorkshire

You are quite correct, you win games of Epic by thinking about objectives and not necessarily by killing units.

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Jeridian

Post subject: Shadow Scorpions 3000pts

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 11:01 pm

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Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:15 am
Posts: 461
Location: UK

I would tend to trade one of the Pred formations for an upgraded Devastator formation to shoot your opponent - it is more resiliant for similar firepower. Put the supreme commander in to split the BTS and supreme commander, or add the Librarian from the termies for extra FF power.

I'll consider it as I already have the Devastator models. It would mean the Predator formation is 2 Annhilator and 2 Destructor, rather than dedicated to one role- which I know is a bad thing.

As Hena says, put a chaplain in the termies - it is easier to use and Termies work best in CC - though I understand the "purist" approach you can think of him leading the entire company from the air before getting committed himself

Perhaps, would mean cutting up models again...grumble, grumble.

Finally, consider converting one of the three Hunters to 3x Razorbacks for additional resiliance to three formations (yes you can add a single Razorback to a formation - it is added first, and then Rhinos are added to provide transport for the other units (leaving a Rhino with only one unit - see FAQ on this).

Seems a bit suspect, kind of a loophole being abused. But I'll look into it.

Where abouts are the two of you from?

Manchester, England, UK. Flame On club.

Each company has it's own characters. So your 1st company termies can be lead with 1st company chaplain. While the battle companies chaplain resides with the brother on the ground.

It's complicated, the Shadow Scorpions don't have a Veteran Company, they have a Veterator specialist detachment that is essentially Termies, Land Raiders that are attached to main Battle Companies as support. As a relatively young Chapter (300yrs old) they don't have very many suits of Termie army, not enough for a full Veteran Company.

Anyway, none of this stops me attaching a Battle Company Chaplain to lead the Veterator attachment.

We'll see.

You are quite correct, you win games of Epic by thinking about objectives and not necessarily by killing units.

Aye, this is been the most complicated part of gaming- trying to remember 5-6? different objectives. Plus a fair few simply aren't achievable for SM's- holding your own table edge quarter wastes a formation, etc.

Thanks, guys.

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Jeridian

Post subject: Shadow Scorpions 3000pts

Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 12:09 am

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Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:15 am
Posts: 461
Location: UK

How are these changes:

Terminator- 4xTerminator. 1xChaplain.

Tactical- 6xTactical. 3xRhino. 1xSupreme Commander.

Tactical- 6xTactical. 3xRhino. 1xHunter. 1xTwin-lascannon Razorback.

Tactical- 6xTactical. 3xRhino. 1xHunter. 1xTwin-lascannon Razorback.

Tactical- 6xTactical. 2xRhino. 1xHunter. 2xTwin-lascannon Razorback.

Predator Destructors- 4x.

Predator Annihilators- 4x.

Thunderhawk Gunship

Thunderhawk Gunship

Total: 3000pts

The Thunderhawks are relegated to an air support role, at least until some transports are toasted. This does seem like a waste of their potential but a tough flyer is still formidable and can reach parts of the board beyond my ground troops range.

I've caved in to the Chaplain.

After much headache I've managed to fiddle the pts so that the Supreme Commander isn't the BTS.
The new BTS, a Tactical formation, will be in Reserve, behind the 3 forward Tacticals.

I did consider the Devastator formation replacing the Predator Destructors.

I have heard that Predators are overpriced, not very useful, but I don't see it.
They can put out more firepower than the Dev's (12 AP shots instead of

, can move twice as far and still put out shots, and in general anti-personnel is more numerous than anti-tank and/or requires easier rolls.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Shadow Scorpions 3000pts

Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:19 am

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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire

I have heard that Predators are overpriced, not very useful, but I don't see it.

The bane of Predators is their status as Armoured Vehicles with low(ish) armour saves.

Because they're vehicles, the enemy is very rarely going to suffer -1 to hit them (Unlike infantry, which are almost always in cover). So they get hit more often and they die quicker. Additionally, they're a small, punchy tank formation in an infantry-based army, which means your opponent will be targetting them very soon after the game begins.

To compound this, they come in a relatively small formation size, so they're easier to break (Devestators have 2 Rhinos, for example, so can take 4 more blast markers).

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Jeridian

Post subject: Shadow Scorpions 3000pts

Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 3:06 am

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Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:15 am
Posts: 461
Location: UK

But with 8 Predators, 11 Rhinos, 3 Hunters and 4 Razorbacks on the field there is a lot of AV to chew through.

I stand by the belief that AT is more rare than AP and/or requires harder dice rolls (I can only base this on the SM list and the IG Steel Legion list, having not faced anything else). As a result, if the Predators are targeted it will be by formations wasting a lot of AP shots, or by dedicated AT formations that should be rare.

Whereas a Dev formation will be just as likely a target but will suffer to AT (the transports) and AP results.

Secondly the opponent can only target what he can see (well mostly). Predators have double the mobility of Dev's.
I.e. they can Advance 30cm and shoot. A Dev formation would have to double and suffer to hit penalties.
This doesn't include when the Dev's mobility is neutered by destroyed transports, whilst ?a Predator formation is always full mobility.

You have the easier to break down, will just have to be more careful.

I think the extra fragility of Predators is offset by the greater firepower they bring- a high risk high gain, to the Devastators medium risk medium gain.
Plus the ability to specialise in AT an area I'm told SM armies suffer in.

8 AT 6+
or 4 AT 4+ and 8 AT 5+.

There are plenty of Tacticals, Thunderhawks and Termies for AP.

Experience will probably prove me wrong,

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Ginger

Post subject: Shadow Scorpions 3000pts

Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 9:57 pm

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Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5483
Location: London, UK

The Marines are probably the hardest army to play well, but also possibly the most flexible. Each formation will usually have several specific roles to perform at different points in the game, and so they need to be husbanded for the right moment.

WRT the preds, I'd try out the Pred Destructors to get a feel for what they can do (and it can be awsome in the right circumstances), but as Hena says they are really an AP weapon - and you already have a lot of AP in the tacticals.

Without upgrades, Devastators are almost as weak as predators -

. But, add a hunter, Razorback or three (not two!) and they preserve their mobility better, with added AT capability. An expensive alternative to try occasionally is Devs in Landraiders - but the LRs are a bit of a point sink! Their best location is relatively centrally on the battlefield, in (or behind) cover from where the can use their firepower to dominate a large area.

Finally, as you have two Thunderhawks and one Terminator formation, you could always try combining these - one THawk carries out an assault with the Termies, and the other comes in and picks them up ready to assault the next turn. You do "lose" an activation like this, but the added mobility to the Termies is a big bonus - and scary to the opponent!

A very good treatise on the various Marine units was done by TRC here

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Jeridian

Post subject: Shadow Scorpions 3000pts

Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:54 pm

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Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:15 am
Posts: 461
Location: UK

Have to agree on the Destructors. If I'm honest they're included because in order to buy 4 Annihilators...I'm left with 4 Destructor models.

In a perfect world I'd have 2 formations of Annihilators instead of one of each, as I think they have potential.

The Destructors though are excess AP, and with the Heavy Bolters range being shorter than the Tactical/Dev's Missiles it comes out worse.

Hmm, I may have a look at a Devastator formation to replace the Destructors. Back to the drawing board.

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