War "Experts" |
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primarch
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Post subject: War "Experts"  Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 3:08 pm |
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Hi!
As with any weapon, it excels for what it was made for. The harrier and A-10 warthog are mainly support, not air superiority. Try tank busting or covering are troops with an ultra-fast fighter, not too efficient.
Same for the stealth planes. They are meant for first strikes against well defended targets to thwart their radar and integrated air defense. Any fighter could shoot it down, if it could locate it.
Air combat is a very complex game of paper, scissor and rock. Some can beat another, but not everything. The trick is how and where to use them.
Primarch
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MaksimSmelchak
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Post subject: War "Experts" Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 3:51 pm |
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Jimbo,
The Argentines were operating Mirage and Dagger (read ex-Israeli Kfir) as air superiority fighters.
The A-4s and Etenards were operating as strike aircraft.
My friend loves the Falkland Conflict and I'm working up a big map of the islands for him. I made a big map of the Sinai desert for us already.
Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
P.S.
The Sea Harrier under the control of professional British pilots did incredibly well as an air defense platform despite its' low speed. Maneauverability (VIFFing) and excellent coordination allowed them to have a very lopsided air-to-air record. They were also backed by the Iron Lady (Thatcher).
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Jimbo
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Post subject: War "Experts" Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 5:28 pm |
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| Quote (MaksimSmelchak @ 07 2003 Dec.,14:51) | Jimbo,
The A-4s and Etenards were operating as strike aircraft. |
uh that was my point...
hence the inverted commas against the 'real'
ah the wonders of the text based format for conversation_________________ Jimbo
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Legion 4
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Post subject: War "Experts" Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 7:16 pm |
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Yes, the G-36 is state-of-the-art in current assault rifle design, at this time. And the MG-3 is an updated version of the WWII MG-42. So together, they are a very good combination. I like them both! ?
But remember, in WWII, by 1943, the US was the only Army that all its' troops had semi-automatic weapons, with either the M-1 Garand or M-1 Carbine. Everyone else were still using bolt action rifles. ?
And as far as the A-10, I've called them in, they are an excellent ground attack aircraft. And the Harrier was designed for multi-roles, but primarily used for CAS. Both would have been used to attack massed USSR armor formations that were to cross the East/West borders. ?
The Air Superiority battle would have been fought between other aircraft types (F-4s, F-15s, etc., etc.). The F-117, like most modern aircraft, is a fighter/bomber, they have to do both. But admittedly, the F-117 is really a great light strike aircraft. ?
The advantage that we have now and have had since WWII, is Air Superiority. The USSR may have competed for that during the height of Cold War, but that is still arguable. ?
And with that may I remind us all that today in 1941 the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor... and the World has not been the same since... 
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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Tas
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Post subject: War "Experts" Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:41 am |
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Another interesting footnote to the sinking of the Havey Cruiser BELGRANO by the RN submarine (SSN) CONQUEROR, is that she used ww2 vintage Mk 8 straight running torpedos due to the low confidence in the modern heavyweight torpedo of the time.
I find it fittingly ironic that a ww2 weapon was used to sink a ww2 era cruiser.
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Legion 4
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Post subject: War "Experts" Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:57 am |
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That is interesting, sometimes new technology still needs to get the bugs worked out. We had some NVDs that we kept in the arms room, they were a bit more trouble then they were worth to lug around !
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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primarch
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Post subject: War "Experts" Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2003 3:31 pm |
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Hi!
The main "trick" of new technology is the development of new tactics to go with them.
The North had galting guns in the Civil war as well as repeating rifles, yet never used them effectively.
The germans had inferior tanks, yet roundly defeated their opponents on the wars beginning.
Part of the west superiority at present is the successful marriage of high tech and good tactics.
Primarch
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MaksimSmelchak
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Post subject: War "Experts" Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2003 4:42 pm |
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Primarch,
Most military analysts seem to agree that the US war machine is about two to three generations ahead of almost all other world armies in almost every field.
While most U.S. weapons are technologically superior to their projected foes, the biggest advantages are in terms of organization, logistics and tactics.
Which is sort of curious since those are the very three advantages that many historians argue the USA had in WWII. I guess the difference is that the USA had many technologically inferior weapons in WWII.
Personally I think the most important factor in warfare is cause and motivation. I'd rather have highly motivated soldiers with a just cause than advantages in organization, logistics, firepower, technology, tactics, etc..
Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
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Legion 4
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Post subject: War "Experts" Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2003 4:45 pm |
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All very true, the problem is when tactics don't evolve along with the tech! ?
During the ACW, WWI, and even at the beginning of WWII this was seen.
And this is as good a place as any, if any of you have not seen the news - elements of the US 4th ID and TF 21 (US SF & CIA) captured Saddam today... another turning point.
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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primarch
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Post subject: War "Experts" Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2003 9:27 pm |
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Hi!
As Maksim points out, individual motivation is a very powerful motivator. Throughout history many "inferior" forces have given a "run for their money" to superior forces due to motivation.
That's why the West in the last 20 or so years have tried to pick wars where their is some redeeming quality, such as liberation or stopping ethnic cleansing. It gives the troops a sense of purpose and motivation that impacts a great deal on the battlefield.
Primarch.
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Legion 4
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Post subject: War "Experts" Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2003 9:51 pm |
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I have to agree again.
And I might add, professional, volunteer forces of the West usually fared better then other forces in the latter part of the 20th century. ?
However "in the thick of the fight"... your survival and that of your comrades is generally all that counts.
Ideology has its' limits, unless you are a homicide bomber...
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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MaksimSmelchak
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Post subject: War "Experts" Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2003 10:17 pm |
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L-4,
And I might add, professional, volunteer forces of the West usually fared better then other forces in the latter part of the 20th century. | ?
Yes, in general the "citizen-soldier" of the West have shown to be better soldiers than the forced conscripts of other nations.
But then again, we have the example of Israel with near-universal conscription, but also a "citizen-soldier" ideal and a VERY STRONG sense of motivation (survival with the Holocaust as a reminder of the price of failure).
I think that while the "volunteer" part contributes to success, the "citizen-soldier" ideal is the more significant factor.
However "in the thick of the fight"... your survival and that of your comrades is generally all that counts. |
Amen.
Ideology has its' limits, unless you are a homicide bomber...
Or the person fighting to prevent the homicide-bombers...
Even the genocide bombers (known in the media as suicide bombers) have strong limits. They overwhelmingly tend to be poor oppressed underadvantaged people who have been brainwashed and often without the knowledge of their families.
We never get to see the interviews of Palestinian-Arab families who wish their children hadn't have become genocide-bombers because that sort of news isn't sensationalist and the BBC, CNN, Reuters, AP, AFP have an anti-Israeli agenda.
Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
P.S.
It's = it is (a contraction)
its or its' = a possesive for it (accepted grammar conventions)
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Legion 4
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Post subject: War "Experts" Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2003 7:12 am |
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I have to agree with you again, for the most part.
The situation Israel finds itself in is unique, as opposed to the forces of the West. Even after 9/11, there was not a huge rush to join the military in the US. Although most wanted the Terrorist problem taken care of, many were glad that there were professionals to do it. ?
The IDF starts off as being surrounded, so they are motivated. Failure is not an option.
And it is clear that many, many media outlets are anti-Israeli. ?
Didn't some ancient scholar say, "Truth is the first casualty of war?"
(I get it's vs. its', I type slowly and think even slower!)  ?
Thanks again!
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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MaksimSmelchak
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Post subject: War "Experts" Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2003 3:02 pm |
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L-4,
I have to agree with you again, for the most part. |
You're welcome... for the most part! LOL ?
The situation Israel finds itself in is unique, as opposed to the forces of the West. Even after 9/11, there was not a huge rush to join the military in the US. Although most wanted the Terrorist problem taken care of, many were glad that there were professionals to do it. |
Or another way to put it is that the threat of war flushes all of the cowards out of the system who would have joined the military for just the benefits.
Every now and then I talk to the radical liberal protesters and draw them out to answer what they would do when negociation is no longer an answer. Most of them have never thought the answer through (which is how I find most protester's platforms to be - a lot of emotion and little thought.).
I have real respect for genuine mature pacifists. In the USA, there are a number of pacifist groups such as the Amish and Mennonites, but interestingly enough, I met people from both of those backgrounds while in the military. I had some real interesting conversations finding out why someone raised as a pacifist would join the military.
The IDF starts off as being surrounded, so they are motivated. Failure is not an option.
In Hebrew the phrase is "En brera," which means "no choice."
And it is clear that many, many media outlets are anti-Israeli.
I was speaking with my auntie the other day ago (She was born and raised in the UK) and she had a hard time beleiving that the BBC has an anti-Semitic and anti-Israeli agenda. She can admit that the UK is one of the most anti-Semitic nations (She remembers growing up in Surrey.) in Europe (a recently released report seems to confirm this), but she still doesn't want to admit the same about the BBC.
She knows all about the fantasy of Lawrence of Arabia (The story is more fantasy than truth.), but still wants to beleive that the BBC airs evenhanded reports... even at a time when the BBC charter granted by the queen is being questioned for that very reason!
NPR is another story.
Why do publically funded news outlets seem to invariably radiate towards radical left politics?
Didn't some ancient scholar say, "Truth is the first casualty or war?"
I can't remember who it was.
Plutarch comes to mind, but it couldn't have been him.
(I get it's vs. its', I type slowly and think even slower!) ?
OK. ?
Thanks again!
You're welcome, good buddy... LOL ?
Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
