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Well, I spoke with Andy H.

Dwarf Supreme

Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:19 pm

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(CyberShadow @ Sep. 26 2007,07:56)

QUOTE

(Evil and Chaos @ Sep. 26 2007,10:53)

QUOTE

And I think that GW/SG may now have pushed the players just one step too far.

I'm gonna keep playing Epic, whether GW supports it or not.

My thoughts exactly.

I also agree with the sentiment that I've expected nothing new for Epic since '97 and that we have now is a bonus.

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vanvlak

Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:46 pm

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(CyberShadow @ Sep. 26 2007,13:56)

QUOTE

However, even I would need a little convincing to pick up a fifth edition rule book and more resculpts of the same minis that I own, in the future!

Bet you would, too :;):

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Heresiarch

Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:39 pm

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While I largely agree with you Primarch, I wouldn't say Epic is 'canned'. Canned to me would mean no epic figures for sale, and no support material hosted by GW.

Canned would be next up I think... I would expect the board to do a big song and dance for the shareholders about how they are rationalizing the lines and leveraging their core strengths by reducing overhead right about the second that the LotR licence expires.

The SG games will probably just be crushed like a gnat at the exact same time. Too many figures with too much overhead for too little revenue...

And given that's pretty much why they killed it the last time we went through this I can't say as I see any reason why it would be different this time.

GW will not be creating any new games, neither will they be ditching the current SG range. The investment made in all the games so far has been far more than SG needs in it's current mission. And just so long that continuing with the current range doesn't cost more than it's worth, or distract unduly from the core business, it will stay.

Sure they'll ditch it.

All the SG lines take up time, energy and money for marketing, web site space and production/warehousing.

This is the exact same calculus that GW went through last time when they canned e40K and at least then they had a larger line to sell to consumers. Look at the price Tyranid plastics go for on flea-bay.

If they can't even be bothered to fill the existing market why would they bother to continue to half ass a job of it?

Sorry DRM and Exodus, I'm not interested in any made up sci-fi world, they have no relevence or meaning. Over the years, 40k has been an education and not just a pleasure for me.

As L4 would say... do what ever works for you but at least DRM and EW have done more than just poorly rip off history and tart it up like something original.

GW's originality is so laughable it's sad.

Enjoyable? You bet. Original? Not even remotely.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:48 pm

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GW's originality is so laughable it's sad.

Centaurs?
Space Romans?
Jump Troopers?
Space Robots?

EW & DRM are just as original as GW.

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Warmaster Nice

Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:04 pm

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Although I hope it is not the case, I do tend to agree that it will only be a matter of time before sales of Epic models are discontinued. If no product development is going to happen to a game system that is essentially only half finished (Missing races, armylists etc.) it would probably make little sense to continue support in the long run.
By any means I'll be waiting for GW to make a clearout sale like last time and pick up a bunch of infantry spures at ?1.5 each

As for DRM and EW: Sure the miniatures will never be the same as official GW ones. I'll take a Chimera that looks like a chimera any time. However there's a lot of instances where other miniatures would look just fine. Infantry in particular.

Regarding the background: It is true that not much background has been publically released for either DRM or EW yet. However I know for a fact that a lot of work is going on behind the scenes with development in that regard. Surely it will take many years before the background will be anywhere near as detailed as GW background. However both companies have shown a great interest in providing a product that rivals GW in terms of quality. They've certainly done so in casting quality (which surpasses GW's IMO) so I see no reason why that trend wouldn't be carried on in the other branches of their businesses.

The big problem with background development is to lay down a foundation that allows expansion. One if the GW universe's bigest flaws IMO is that everything seems so static and set in stone. Back in the Rogue Trader days the universe was still new and there was a lot of room for personal creative freedom and interpretations of the background. Now you can hardly change the positioning of an ornamental skull before you have fluff lawyers bickering about how this and that is completely impossible within the 40k Universe. (Which is also the reason for all the inconsistencies in the fluff: Every time they add a new race they need to discard half of the existing matierial because it doesn't really fit in. The whole Tau mess is a good example I think.)
I rather tend to see it as a great freedom to have the DRM and EW universes "incomplete". This allows for new things to be added as well as encourages players to come up with their own stuff.
All a matter of taste of course

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Heresiarch

Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:17 pm

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(Evil and Chaos @ Sep. 26 2007,13:48)

QUOTE

GW's originality is so laughable it's sad.

Centaurs?
Space Romans?
Jump Troopers?
Space Robots?

EW & DRM are just as original as GW.

Hehe... last time I checked DRM/EW/CH haven't lifted blocks of history wholesale, tarted them up with a bit of makeup and called it new.

There is... to me at least... a vast difference between using the same old sci-fi memes that have existed as long as there's been sci-fi and blatantly ripping off history lock, stock and barrel and then having the nerve to say your bold, brash and beautiful.

It was fine and fun right up until the point GW started taking themselves seriously in the mid-1990s. Once they started that their credibility went out the window with me.

Triply so considering what kind of epic hissy fits they throw over people violating "their" IP. Gimme a break guys... you stole every freaking thing in the "your" universe from some one else.

I for one have never been able to determine why they haven't had their fundament sued off over the tyranids by both Giger and the movie studios.

And someone really needs to resurrect the Czar and let him take up the whole concept of the double headed eagle.

And the list goes on and on and on and on and on... the only thing that's original is it all being in one spot. Their concept of IP is so ridiculously absurd it is once again sad.

Enjoy it fine... theres no need to run another company down though when your comparing them to the biggest group of creative thieves in the game industry today.

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Dwarf Supreme

Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:20 pm

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Well stated, Heresiarch.

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Otterman

Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:34 pm

Even high strength vulcanized molds, such as those used by SG for metal minis, will wear out. Then it will be educational if the molds are re-made.

Alternatively, if the 'great SG purge' does come, it will be interesting to see if there is a stock clearance sale.

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CyberShadow

Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:34 pm

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Just a quick note about our friends and background. As far as I know, both DRM and EW have so far been concentrating on miniature output. Neither company have published detailed or expansive background work. However, it wont be long.

As for originality, well there is very little actual new stuff out there in anything. Most things are 'inspired' by movies, history or books in some way.

Even when things are 'new' someone always comes along and says "oh, like...". :devil:

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ragnarok

Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:21 pm

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I think that this goes along with how GW screws the SG lines, but at Gameday UK a friend of mine tried to buy a few cruisers for his imperial fleet but was told that they weren't atocking any speacilst producsts but the rule books.

Surely if they want to sell new rules to a cusatomer they should have some models on hand to go with the rules.

GW just seems to do things half arsed and backwards. Even their evil accounting trolls (and if anyone on these boards is an accountant you are an evil troll) should be able to see how much they could flog the nid sprues to us for. People are making a killing because they wont rerelease some of their older models that are neededfor games.

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Markconz

Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:39 am

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(Heresiarch @ Sep. 26 2007,20:17)

QUOTE

There is... to me at least... a vast difference between using the same old sci-fi memes that have existed as long as there's been sci-fi and blatantly ripping off history lock, stock and barrel and then having the nerve to say your bold, brash and beautiful.

I like the way you used the word memes...

As to memes, people identify with archetypes, hence the success of Star Wars.

EW and DRM - space dwarves, space romans, space lizards, space robots, space grunts.

To join GW's space elves, space orks, space knights, space grunts, space anime, space bugs, space skeletons.

The originality comes from sticking a basic concept people can identify with into a setting, and then exploring and developing that concept. Yes they are space knights, but what exactly does the armour look like and why, down to every last detail? What exactly are their weapons like? How do they fight? What exactly are their motivations? Etc.

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CyberShadow

Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:09 pm

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(Markconz @ Sep. 27 2007,01:39)

QUOTE

The originality comes from sticking a basic concept ?people can identify with into a setting, and then exploring and developing that concept. Yes they are space knights, but what exactly does the armour look like and why, down to every last detail? What exactly are their weapons like? How do they fight? What exactly are their motivations? Etc.

Agreed. And this is where the background comes to life and becomes more than just a 'nice story'. Unfortunately, this is also the bit which takes the real time to get absolutely right.

For example, you may have a race which have a different stream of technology, such as non-binary computers, using a different method for the same end result. Now, this may be a nice throw-away line in a book somewhere to make a race 'different', but future details need to keep this in mind - how does this effect control machinery, weapons development, presonal equipment such as jump packs and force fields, and lots more.

This is something that I have been chatting with Doug about a few weeks ago, and he (and I assume that Tom is the same) would rather make sure that this stuff is coherent right from the start and everything fits together.

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Ginger

Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:14 pm

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Probably the best example of this is Tolkein's Lord of the Rings etc, but it litterally took most of his lifetime to perfect. I hope Doug and Tom are not that perfectionist! *Laugh*

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primarch

Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:56 am

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(Markconz @ Sep. 25 2007,20:12)

QUOTE

While I largely agree with you Primarch, I wouldn't say Epic is 'canned'. Canned to me would mean no epic figures for sale, and no support material hosted by GW.

Right now Epic does have an online presence at GW with downloadable rules and articles, and at least the current Epic range is still for sale.

In addition, Epic and the other Specialist Games still have their own forums at GW, and a link to Epicomms, despite GW killing the forums of all the core games. Right now Specialist Games is running an Epic competition with an Epic Force as the prize.

In short, yes things are bad, but as a gamer they could actually be much worse in terms of ease of getting figures and rules. Obviously many of us have not been waiting around for GW for some time now (see handbook in my sig) but taking steps ourselves to support the game.

Objectively the only thing really lacking is two figure ranges (completed Chaos range, and Tyranids), and a workable structure for resolving community rules development (being worked on). Everything else is good enough.

Hi!

Come on Markonz, we're splitting hairs here.... :;):

By that definition epic 40k was still "viable up until GW online pulled the lines YEARS after it was clear the game flopped and was even out of print.

That minis are available only means that GW has stock to get rid of. IT says nothing about actual game viability of support. Chaos sprues are not available because they probably sold out and GW does not want to make anymore. Its not profitable for them in their view (which granted, is probably not an accurate view on their part).

Epic died 10 months after Epic A's release when the initial "restructuring" was announced. Its been all downhill since.

There should be no surprise, primarch told ya so back then.... :;):

I don't count "fan based" support as part of the company keeping their own games viable. Our efforts are... well OURS!

The availability of minis at present is just back stock getting cleared. Once that dwindles I will predict that then NOTHING will be available, just as it happened before. We are witnessing the same symptoms again, that happened those years ago after epic 40k. Its unfortunate and it sucks, but thats the way it is.

I advise, what I did last time this happened, BUY, BUY, BUY everything you'd like NOW. Tomorrow it may not be available.

I guess it all has to do with expectations. My personal view is that if epic isn't getting the support at the level of SM2 (aka Golden Age of epic), that pretty much equals no support at all. I don't like half-way measures, especially from a company that CAN support it at that level if it chose too.

Oh well, most of us should be pros at weathering out these "ice ages". I look forward to the "next" re-birth in hopes that another golden ages will be born.

I guess I am a sap for hoping this, but thats how I feel.

Primarch

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primarch

Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 3:01 am

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(CyberShadow @ Sep. 26 2007,07:56)

QUOTE

(Evil and Chaos @ Sep. 26 2007,10:53)

QUOTE

And I think that GW/SG may now have pushed the players just one step too far.

I'm gonna keep playing Epic, whether GW supports it or not.

As will I. However, that is not what I meant. It is one thing to play a game with your established collection of minis and the rule book. However, even I would need a little convincing to pick up a fifth edition rule book and more resculpts of the same minis that I own, in the future!

And, I simply cant rely on GW any further. I agree with vanvlak, that the EW and DRM background is currently at the stage that 40K was in the mid-80's. While it currently doesnt have the depth of the 40K background, that can really only mature over time. I feel differently about the 40K background to any other game, not because it is better in any sense, but because it means something to me and is familiar.

Hi!

I haven't relied on GW since 1997. Its quite liberating actually. You play the game you like with the rules you like and what GW does or doesn't do is immaterial to you.

Companies like Exodus and DRM, just make me happy to have choices that I CAN ACTUALLY GET. Rather than things I'd like, but GW either wont do or I cant get.

In the end I'm way too practical to wait for GW to finally get their act together regarding epic.

Primarch

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