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Tiding from SG about epic
primarch
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 10:39 pm 
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(Dwarf Supreme @ Aug. 17 2006,10:41)
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(tneva82 @ Aug. 17 2006,03:30)
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(Dwarf Supreme @ Aug. 16 2006,20:18)
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I'm not trying to be argumentative (honest ?:p ), but how does GW's business practices prove that a large number of Epic players switched to playing 40k (or any other GW game)?

Had all of them abandoned GW(or even significant part) that would have been seen on profit line.

If killing epic would have caused their profit margins go down they would have broken world record time it takes to reverse it as they would have brought epic into fully supported game faster you can say cat.

A rise in profits doesn't necessarily indicate that killing epic was the reason for the rise. For example, increasing prices higher than increasing operating costs will cause a rise in profits. Plus, an influx of new gamers may have offset the number of disgruntled Epic players. Who knows how much higher profits could have gone up if GW hadn't alienated a ton of Epic players?

Hi!

My point exactly.

GW;s increase in profits had all to do with their change in marketing (towards younger customers) and virtually nothing to do with epic 40k's flop.

Primarch

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primarch
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 10:43 pm 
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(Enderel @ Aug. 17 2006,10:55)
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Was SM2 dropped for financial reasons or end of life cycle? ?

I thought that around that time Specialist games had greater support than ever before (or after!) Man O War, Talisman, Warhammer Quest, Blood Bowl all in store, all pushed.

I always thought it was due to them having "finished" the overall SM2 game with the release of Titan Legions. ?All the races available, the rules worked, lots of models were available.

They needed to rerelease the game to generate new interest, not that it was loosing them money?

E:A is being put on the back burner for purely financial reasons? ?It's in no way complete.

Hi!

What I was told from retailers that atteneded the US retailer conventions in that year was that the games change was to try to increase epic sales rate hopefully making it reach around 15% (compred to the around 9% at the time).

GWs "strategy" of obsolescent games was beginning around then, but did not involve epic yet since at the time it was a core game.

I beleive they genuinely thought they could make a better game and thus derive profits. That reality proved differently was unfortunate.

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dafrca
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:10 pm 
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(CyberShadow @ Aug. 17 2006,01:59)
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(iblisdrax @ Aug. 16 2006,23:36)
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The thing that annoys me, however, is the refusal to even consider licensing the Epic scale( or other SG lines, past and present) to another company willing to invest more time in it. ?Perhaps there have been offers to do such things, but the GW license was too high.

GW/SG could never agree to a license of Epic to another company, simply because this would also require an agreement about the copyright involved in the major 40K lines such as the Tau, Tyranids, etc. Any Epic license would have to include the fair use of these terms, images and whole package, and that could open up potential problems and conflicts with 40K.

This is not fully true. License agreements can limit product and IP use. They can include final approval rights on all artwork, promotional images, etc. Many of the items you see for entertainment companies like Disney, WB, Sony for example, are licensed. Every Happy Meal Toy for example. McDonalds buys the toys, but the toys and all relevant image uses are approved by the owner before McDonalds can put anything out.

Think about some of the RPG games based on movies like the Star Trak products. They all had Paramount?s legal and corporate teams review the items before those could be sold.

GW could do it and still control the final products. Images etc. They choose not to.

dafrca

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Magnus
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:33 am 
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(tneva82 @ Aug. 17 2006,09:37)
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Yes. And after killing epic they did even more profit. Which is the point.

If epic would bring more profit than not supporting GW would have darned good motive to keep epic alive. They aren't idiots. Just profit seekers.

Tneva, as Peter already pointed out you cannot directly correlate "rising profits" to the demise of Epic. The constant, incredible rise of the average price of a single model has much more to do with it then anything related to Epic.

Back then, at the apex of SM and TL glory, Epic wasn't axed "per se" but as part of an overall GW decision: keep two main game lines constantly alive and rotate one other secondary game/year. I vaguely seem to remember an important part of this decision was due to an excessive number of available blisters putting a strain both on GW and on final resellers' resources (just think about store space). Of course that decision was recently reversed with LOTR, but that's another story.

From then on, the business direction GW has taken is quite clear: cater to the 13 year old gamer whose daddy has enough financial availability to keep his young son happy. Squeeze him for all that he is worth for about a year, then switch to the NEW 13 old gamer who didn't buy anything in the last year. Meanwhile, improve the bottom line by an ever increasing average price on the single model, thus increasing margins.

There are two main problems with this approach:

A) although the market proved rather elastic (and besides, you can manipulate things up to a point by reducing the number of minis needed to field in an average battle), you cannot realistically expect to keep increasing the price forever.
B) 13 years old are fickle.

GW had a big advantage due to its unique IP and market presence. As it was bound to happen, though, someone else looked at their market model and saw an opportunity. GW is facing increasingly fierce competition (Confrontation, SST etc.). And due to its extremely focalized target and market practice, it is vulnerable.

Managing a company is not just about maximizing short term profits. At some point you need to take into account the long term picture too.
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Magnus
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:36 am 
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(dafrca @ Aug. 18 2006,00:10)
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Think about some of the RPG games based on movies like the Star Trak products. They all had Paramount?s legal and corporate teams review the items before those could be sold.

GW could do it and still control the final products. Images etc. They choose not to.

dafrca

I guess the thought of the costs incurred for a review team was too much for GW's corporate execs' vulnerable minds....
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Markconz
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:12 pm 
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(Magnus @ Aug. 18 2006,09:33)
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From then on, the business direction GW has taken is quite clear: cater to the 13 year old gamer whose daddy has enough financial availability to keep his young son happy. Squeeze him for all that he is worth for about a year, then switch to the NEW 13 old gamer who didn't buy anything in the last year. Meanwhile, improve the bottom line by an ever increasing average price on the single model, thus increasing margins.

That's only part of the story dafrca.

For the full story see the 'I hooked myself a Primarch' thread ( :p ) over here:

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin....t=7206;


Talking about alternative companies, ?something I've noticed locally is that when the GW people do switch to non-GW minis - the alternative companies are generally top of the line in quality, eg Rackham, Warmachine. ?You seen the prices on those things? No difference, in fact they are often more expensive than GW :(

Also I very much dislike rules specific for those minis - data cards for everything and messy mechanisms. Expensive too. I'd rather have my free SG rules myself ?:cool:




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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:18 pm 
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(Magnus @ Aug. 18 2006,05:36)
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(dafrca @ Aug. 18 2006,00:10)
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Think about some of the RPG games based on movies like the Star Trak products. They all had Paramount?s legal and corporate teams review the items before those could be sold.

GW could do it and still control the final products. Images etc. They choose not to.

dafrca

I guess the thought of the costs incurred for a review team was too much for GW's corporate execs' vulnerable minds....

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure there is currently a company (Green Ronin?) producing new WHFRGP material under license. Granted this is only printed stuff and not minis, but I would bet that GW reviews the material before it gets printed.

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Grimshawl
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:18 pm 
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(Markconz @ Aug. 18 2006,14:12)
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Talking about alternative companies, ?something I've noticed locally is that when the GW people do switch to non-GW minis - the alternative companies are generally top of the line in quality, eg Rackham, Warmachine. ?You seen the prices on those things? No difference, in fact they are often more expensive than GW :(

Also I very much dislike rules specific for those minis - data cards for everything and messy mechanisms. Expensive too. I'd rather have my free SG rules myself ?:cool:

thats strange overall in my area those games are somewhat cheaper to play, especially if you count the cost it takes for example to get into 40k, compared to the cost of what it takes to play starship troopers or Warmachine, for example.
what I'm saying is it seems cheaper to buy a base line force for warmachine or starship troopers than say an army for 40k or Warhammer fantasy, GWs core games.




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Heresiarch
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:35 pm 
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(Dwarf Supreme @ Aug. 18 2006,08:18)
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I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure there is currently a company (Green Ronin?) producing new WHFRGP material under license. Granted this is only printed stuff and not minis, but I would bet that GW reviews the material before it gets printed.

The Warhammer FRPG is actually produced by "Black Industries" which is a direct subsiduary of GW's Black Library division.

Green Ronin though are actually designing the 40k RPG but once again as I understand it the game will still be published in-house by Black Industries.

http://www.blackindustries.com/default. ... e=dh-press

So... GW still keeps direct control in both cases.

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:59 pm 
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(Heresiarch @ Aug. 18 2006,12:35)
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(Dwarf Supreme @ Aug. 18 2006,08:18)
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I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure there is currently a company (Green Ronin?) producing new WHFRGP material under license. Granted this is only printed stuff and not minis, but I would bet that GW reviews the material before it gets printed.

The Warhammer FRPG is actually produced by "Black Industries" which is a direct subsiduary of GW's Black Library division.

Green Ronin though are actually designing the 40k RPG but once again as I understand it the game will still be published in-house by Black Industries.

http://www.blackindustries.com/default. ... e=dh-press

So... GW still keeps direct control in both cases.

I stand corrected. I thought it was an independent company doing WHFRPG.

I'm surprised Green Ronin is developing the 40k RPG only to have someone else publish it.

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Heresiarch
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 6:03 pm 
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(Dwarf Supreme @ Aug. 18 2006,10:59)
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I stand corrected. I thought it was an independent company doing WHFRPG.

I'm surprised Green Ronin is developing the 40k RPG only to have someone else publish it.

:lol:

I suppose GW just waved enough $$$ at Green Ronin and they went "why not!".

I'll be curious to see how the system works actually...

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 6:27 pm 
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But I've heard G/W's profits are down overall, too ?!

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primarch
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:50 pm 
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Hi!

They are still making a profit L4, but its failing to reach the levels they expect and in some cases, it seems to be negative (US sales), if I remember correctly.

Anyone have a link to their last statement?

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 7:29 am 
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Well ... little is better than none ... :D   FRoA #162 Even in the worst of times someone turns a profit.

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:49 am 
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(tneva82 @ Aug. 16 2006,10:30)
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(Grimshawl @ Aug. 16 2006,14:02)
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do you have anything, any type of evidence that shows that most of the gamers GW lost when epic went unsupported actually switched over to GWs other games?

Most of the people I knew who played Epic already had 40K and/or WFB armies.

That said most of those people are now playing a lot more non-GW games. Especially Warmachine and Hordes.

Now I think that they were playing Epic because they were either looking for a fun new game or they were just disenchanted with 40K and WFB. In either case their desire to go "back" to 40K or WFB would have been limited.

Of the nine Epic gamers in our local group who stopped playing Epic most of them have gone to primarily play...

Adrian: Flames of War
Tim: Warmachine
Trent: Hordes
Trevor: Confrontation
Me: Almost everything
Ryan: No real gaming anymore
Jeff: Hordes
Darren: Flames of War
Dan: WFB but he is a long term WFB player

All of these people have WFB and/or 40K forces and in no case did any of these people start spending money on core games. Except Dan who is the president of the local WFB gaming group.

Tanking Epic really only further disillusioned the people who already didn't really have any vested interest in their 40K and WFB armies.

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