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Philip K. Dick was a freaking genius
javelin98
 Post subject: Philip K. Dick was a freaking genius
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 5:35 pm 
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(CyberShadow @ Aug. 26 2006,14:20)
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(Evil and Chaos @ Aug. 26 2006,11:07)
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Add Running Man,


That was Stephen King.

Really? I must have my wires crossed somewhere... what book/film am I thinking of, then?  :p

I'll bet you're thinking of another Arnie movie, Total Recall, which was based on the PKD story "We Can Remember It For You Wholesale".  Great story, if you've never read it.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Philip K. Dick was a freaking genius
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:24 pm 
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I'm with Daf.  PKD writing is mediocre at best - weak characterization and plot development.

His work is, however, exceptionally strong in the conceptual department which gives his world settings a feel of depth.  His influence over SF is primarily due to that.

I think those traits are why his books potentially make good movies.  They don't have much more plot or character development than a short story but that fits nicely into the length of a movie.  A movie is also a perfect venue for communicating the concepts of his work, especially since some of the groundwork he laid in teh scifi world has leaked into mainstream audiences and a filmmaker can easily tap into those pop culture images as a kind of shorthand.

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Magnus
 Post subject: Philip K. Dick was a freaking genius
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:27 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Aug. 30 2006,19:24)
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I'm with Daf.  PKD writing is mediocre at best

Oh God. Do we disagree on Dick.... I think he's one of the best writers of the 20th century.

I also disagree that "plot development" constitutes a necessary part of a literary masterpiece. Not to mention that I cannot understand how the book which I cited at the start of this thread can be said to have weak plot development  :p

Ah well. We'll just have to agree to disagree [and reciprocally send the undead cyborg ninja monkey teams in, of course]
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nealhunt
 Post subject: Philip K. Dick was a freaking genius
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 8:42 pm 
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No worries.  It's been a long time since I read Dick (and not that much as I disliked it and stopped) so it's not like I could debate it.

I pretty much despise Heinlein for similar reasons, which is nearly enough to get me lynched at most scifi conventions.  And unlike Dick, I will cheerfully shred Heinlein given the slightest provocation.

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Philip K. Dick was a freaking genius
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 8:48 pm 
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Neal, have you read Starship Troopers? I'm not a big fan of Heinlein either, but I really liked it.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Philip K. Dick was a freaking genius
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 9:05 pm 
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I thought Starship Troopers was entertaining enough.  That's a lot different than it being a good book, though.  It still suffers from the same problems all of his stuff does.

He's ridiculously didactic and his characterization is wretched.   It doesn't help that, despite all his high-minded text espousing the contrary, his books are sexist and frequently fascist.

On the postive side his prose is fantastic and he is emminently quotable.  I think that drives his popularity.

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iblisdrax
 Post subject: Philip K. Dick was a freaking genius
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:31 pm 
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You have to remember the time period when Heinlein was writing....sexism was the order of the day.  And his work was mightily influenced by EE Smith's books, which are much the same way.  As for movies, his books have been brutalized by the movie industry for the same reason Dick's succeed:  They have too much plot and character development for a 2 hour movie.  I alternately cried and vowed death to movie studios when Starship Troopers came out...it is so horrible.  
 
As always, that remains my opinion.

ib

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Philip K. Dick was a freaking genius
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:40 pm 
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Funny though, I love Starship Troopers (The film), it's a wonderfully absurdist take on nationalism.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Philip K. Dick was a freaking genius
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:48 pm 
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(iblisdrax @ Aug. 30 2006,23:31)
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You have to remember the time period when Heinlein was writing....sexism was the order of the day.

I would cut him a very large break for exactly that reason except that he preaches heavy handedly about it.  If he didn't insist on riding his moral high horse around and proclaiming how open and free he was with respect to [insert social issue] I wouldn't care that he was flagrantly violating it.

However, he does.

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iblisdrax
 Post subject: Philip K. Dick was a freaking genius
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:49 pm 
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Have you read the Starship Troopers novel?  The movie completely screws it all up, misses most of the points, and, well, pretty much sucks compared to what it could have been.  


ib

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javelin98
 Post subject: Philip K. Dick was a freaking genius
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:42 am 
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(iblisdrax @ Aug. 30 2006,15:49)
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Have you read the Starship Troopers novel?  The movie completely screws it all up, misses most of the points, and, well, pretty much sucks compared to what it could have been.  


ib

My understanding is that SST: The Movie was something else entirely, with nothing to do with SST: The Book, but that Paul Verhoeven bought the rights to the book so he could name his film "Starship Troopers" for marketing purposes.  Then the screenwriter ported in the character and place names.  Something like that.

I would have to agree that the pillage of Starship Troopers ranks right up there with some of Hollywood's worst crimes against society.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Philip K. Dick was a freaking genius
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 1:02 am 
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(iblisdrax @ Aug. 30 2006,23:49)
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Have you read the Starship Troopers novel?  The movie completely screws it all up, misses most of the points, and, well, pretty much sucks compared to what it could have been.  


ib

I have read it... it's a treatise on how subsuming your individuality into an unchallengable social structure is a good thing, with a few little action beats thrown in here and there.

As a movie, the book would have been both deathly boring (Being mostly composed of either lecture scenes or internal monologues) and somewhat disturbing on a philosophical level. Far better to have an absurdist comment about asking the city fathers of Hiroshima for their opinions than simply being told that the only solution to youth crime is violent repression.

The entire point of the movie was that it was supposed to 'screw it up'. It was a satire of the book's simplisitc world-view, and a damned fun one.




I would cut him a very large break for exactly that reason except that he preaches heavy handedly about it.  If he didn't insist on riding his moral high horse around and proclaiming how open and free he was with respect to [insert social issue] I wouldn't care that he was flagrantly violating it.

However, he does.


I completely agree. He preaches about morality and then condemns non-hetro sexuality, and writes women as children.

Still, he did have some cool ideas.




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iblisdrax
 Post subject: Philip K. Dick was a freaking genius
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:40 am 
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That argument would work, if they had simply cut the 'lecture/monologes' as you say, and left the action.  Instead, they changed the entire premise of the novel....  For example, the worst, in my mind, was the change from exo-suits (in the novel) to basically just marines with shiny guns ( in the movie) .   That  pretty well destroyed the entire thing, right there.  And probably done simply to avoid expensive CG-graphics sequences.  I really really wish that they had either a) named the movie something else, or b) gave up and tossed it into the trash.  
    As far as the simplistic sociopolitical world view, well, there are wide ranges of opinions all over on that.   You still need to take everything into perspective here...he wasnt attempting to write novels to change the world, except in a few cases.  Most of his works were sold as pulp science fiction, and are some of the best example of that type.  


just my 2cents,

ib

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Philip K. Dick was a freaking genius
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:40 am 
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I liked SST, the book ... read it while at the US Army Infantry Officer Advance Course ('84 IIRC ?). It was recommended by the Infantry Journal. ?I thought the characterization of Infantrymen was generally good. ? The movie was entertaining, but had little to do with the book, IMO ! And the Infantrymen of the movie, demonstrated ?tactical capabilities of boy scouts ! ?LOL ! ?Or a game of 40K !!! ?:D ? ?IMO, if you want good Mil/Sci-fi ... well you know my answer ! ?:;):




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Mojarn Piett
 Post subject: Philip K. Dick was a freaking genius
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:06 am 
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(Legion 4 @ Aug. 31 2006,05:40)
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The movie was entertaining, but had little to do with the book, IMO ! And the Infantrymen of the movie, demonstrated  tactical capabilities of boy scouts !  LOL !  Or a game of 40K !!!  :D

Or Imperial Stormtroopers...

Still, I confess I enjoyed the movie since I haven't read the book. It was not great by any meas but it was entertaining ad that's what I am looking for nowadays in the rare cases I actually sit down to watch a movie. I bought a tape for 2? in a flea market.


IMO, if you want good Mil/Sci-fi ... well you know my answer !  :;):


Star Trek?  :p

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