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Too close for comfort?

Legion 4

Post subject: Too close for comfort?

Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:57 am

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Yes, when it comes to war crimes, it's a close race between the Nazis, Russia or Japan who would would be on top, at least percentage-wise. And no matter what the world feels about the West today, be very glad they(we) won, in the end ... Wargaming as a learning exercise is an important tool, in the military. However, I would be hard pressed to play a game, in the civilian realm, about Somalia, and the current conflicts in SW Asia ... too close ... My late Father was an Infantry SGT in the ETO in WWII as I have said before. He really didn't say much about my military modeling and wargaming when I was in high school. However, he was proud that I later made it thru Officer training, but was not real happy with me going into the Infantry, let alone the Airborne ...

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dafrca

Post subject: Too close for comfort?

Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:00 am

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Quote (Cuban Commissar @ 14 2005 June,18:39)

I have a general question for all of you. ?Does wargaming an era, even one has far back as Ancient Rome, cheapen the memory and tragedy of those wars?

OK, I need to get up on a soap box for a moment.

Americans have done a poor job teaching their youth the History beyond the 50 states. Most kids (20 somethings) could not tell you the differance between the Romans and the Greeks. Other then the country they came from. Americans do not know enough about many of the conflicts to have a strong opinion.

I think that playing War Games does not cheapen anything from the Historical wars. But...

I believe conflicts that are too resent, it could open up pains for people. That is something I would not want to do.

As for my Father, he thought my WWII minis were "nice" and he did correct me a few times when I has something wrong. I think he did not mind because for him, my games had no link to the reality of what he saw and experiansed.

Watching me move small painted tanks accross a golf course green felt tabletop with no mud, blood, guts, smells, smoke, etc. just did not connect.

Now when he saw some of my books, he did get a funny look on his face. That is why I play WWII very seldome and use care in how I treat the subject. No Gear Kreg or Warewolf/Vampire WWII spin off for me.

dafrca

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Markconz

Post subject: Too close for comfort?

Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:03 am

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Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
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Location: New Zealand

I think there are several types of discomfort here.

First is that a game may bring up personal distress and/or pain for us, or for those close to us. For example, reminding us of relations/friends in combat zones or who have been killed/injured in wars. I know I felt this with the Iraq game thinking of a gaming buddy serving in Afganistan and family in Saudi. Too close for comfort, too close to home.

A second type of discomfort which can occur, which people often do not like to admit, is due to a recognition of something dark in ourselves and in human nature. What are these games we play for ?leisure? and ?fun?? What do they represent? Why do we play ?wargames? where the object is to kill the opponents people, and not ?peacegames?, where the objective is to help the opponents people? (I have actually played such a game and we laughed ourselves silly (even the girls) because it seemed kind of ridiculous not to have a winner and spend all game saying nice things to each other ? (though the kids liked it!)). Why are the vast majority of computer games targeted to a male audience violent competitive bloodfests? Why do even roleplaying games which emphasize group co-operation tend to focus on defeat of a common opponent as a necessary plot device? An examination of studies of male leisure activities is very instructive?

A third type of discomfort come when we realise that it seems more ok to play ancient games where the people are long dead, than modern games simulatin conflicts in process - because we care more about people close to us than people distant. Ie we value some human lives more than others.

Fact is in human evolution there were times when survival depended on defeating other humans (like when the drought came and there was only enough food for one tribe). At times like these, the tribe with a greater predisposition to conquer/defend themselves survived and reproduced at the expense of those who did not, and passed on that same predispostion to ?war?. Similarly those who valued and supported their close kindred more than the other tribe were also more likely to survive and pass on the same tendancy to the next generation. Another overlooked point (except perhaps by those in the field of pschology like myself) is the well documented ?self-serving bias? where people have an inbuilt tendancy to positively evaluate their own actions as compared to those of a stranger who performing the same action.

Way I see it, yes we have these inbuilt ?dark? tendancies, but wargames and computer games are a way of indulging them without negative consequences (apart perhaps from time wasted!). At the same time they also often foster a sense of community and co-operation as is evident on many forums such as these and many clubs around the globe. In addition they are a powerful way of remembering the ?human story? and human history. Also it is arguable that historical wargames (and even on-historical wargames) can be very instructive in illustrating just how cheap human lives wind up being when two nations war, ie just how wasteful, terrible and pointless war can be, (and conversely perhaps when is the price of war worth paying ? eg defeating hitler).

Ok my GF has just been reading this over my shoulder and has informed me I have breached geek limits and need to stop! :;):

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primarch

Post subject: Too close for comfort?

Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 3:05 pm

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Hi!

I dont mix my views of feelings with any "entertainment" I'm involved in. For its a game with no cognotations or inferences beyond "the game". I'll play any era, any topic and will not overthink any of it, becuase it is a GAME. Reality is something else.

Primarch

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Legion 4

Post subject: Too close for comfort?

Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:17 pm

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War is part of the human condition ... it's here to stay ... Wargaming is like anything else ... "beauty and truth, (etc.) are in the eyes of the beholder"... for better or worse.

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

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Markconz

Post subject: Too close for comfort?

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:02 am

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Quote (primarch @ 15 2005 June,15:05)

Why play wargames rather than 'homemaking' games with dolls then? Do you really truly believe nothing about you is reflected in the type of games you prefer to play?

Also if you had family in harms way in the middleeast could you really play an ultramodern game using exactly the same terrain and vehicles you see in photos from your family and on the news, and not be reminded of them and your concern for them? I couldn't. Maybe New York Pathologists are made of tougher stuff... :;):

No offense intended Primarch, I'm just interested

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PitFiend

Post subject: Too close for comfort?

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:53 am

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Quote (Markconz @ 15 2005 June,10:03)

Why do we play ?wargames? where the object is to kill the opponents people, and not ?peacegames?, where the objective is to help the opponents people?

Now there's an idea. You each work to advance each other's civilisations to the point where they Roman Empire and become decadent and collapse, while working to promote strife within your own turf in order to keep yours from collapsing.

Meheheheheheheheh. "The Birth of Slaanesh".

Ow. My head hurts.

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Mojarn Piett

Post subject: Too close for comfort?

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:26 am

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Quote (primarch @ 15 2005 June,15:05)

This is just about what I feel. With one addition: IMO before playing a game you first have to understand what it is about. I.e. whyen you play a wargame you have to know what a war is REALLY about. Ditto for FPS games. That's why I am in no hurry to introduce my kids to shoot 'em up games. For them it's all too easy to mix up the realities and that is one of the problems humanity faces today.

It's funny that in many cases people who read war history and play wargames are labelled as warmongers or worse. When the fact is that the more I learn about war the less I like it. Even though I can only get the barest of glimpses of the horror through a book.

Why play wargames rather than 'homemaking' games with dolls then? Do you really truly believe nothing about you is reflected in the type of games you prefer to play?

Why do some people watch soap operas and others watch action films? Why do some people read detective stories while others read horror stories? Why do some people read history while others read philosophy? Why do some people play cards while others play wargemes?

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Markconz

Post subject: Too close for comfort?

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:02 pm

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Quote (Mojarn Piett @ 16 2005 June,09:26)

Quote (primarch @ 15 2005 June,15:05)

I agree with your first points Mojarn.

As for your second set of questions - I guess I'm in the field that asks those exact types of questions in order to understand individual and group psychologies, so its not just idle academic interest to me

For example - studies show that soapies tend to be females, while action flick audiences tend to be male, do you think that says anything about male and female psychological tendancies?

As another example, what happens with card games if they move beyond the abstract? What is the nature of card games (eg trading cards) targetted towards guys? How many are 'homemaking - the gathering' - and how many are 'conflict - the gathering?'

Do you think that reveals anything? And of course what about the computer game industry... 'Doom' 'Warcraft' etc... 'The Sims' being the execption to the general rule of successful comptuer games because it is one of the few titles out there that appeals to a broader female audience...

I almost agree with L4 - war (or capacity for war) is part of human nature (especially male nature), though I hope by broad understanding of it it may be avoided as Mojarn and others have said.

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Markconz

Post subject: Too close for comfort?

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:15 pm

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Ok just to get back to the original theme and questions such as that asked by cuban commissar (personal experience), I will share an event that may explain a little why I have commented and obviously been thinking about the 'too close for comfort' issue.

My partners parents were in Saudi until recently, and there were periods where things were very bad... the worst being the co-ordinated attacks by massed suicide bombers and gunmen on the western compounds where her parents were staying. I guess many of you have had similar stresses of waiting for casualty reports and not being able to get in contact with loved ones, and perhaps even getting terrible news... I remember her mother arriving home, without her husband (he stayed on there to finish his contract) still in a state of shock... describing the bomb blasts etc.

In this situation - modern middle eastern wargames were too close for comfort for me.

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Legion 4

Post subject: Too close for comfort?

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:02 pm

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Location: Ohio - USA

"Pray for Peace, but Prepare for War" ... Little has changed over the centuries but our efficiency it killing each other ... "He who does not study history is doomed to repeat it" ... Some should be glad that there are "Hammer's Slammers" types to do the "dirty" work, that no matter how hard we try, we always end up going to war ... Sad but true ...

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

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PitFiend

Post subject: Too close for comfort?

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:32 pm

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Quote (Mojarn Piett @ 16 2005 June,09:26)

the fact is that the more I learn about war the less I like it. Even though I can only get the barest of glimpses of the horror through a book.

Yup. I've spent far far too much time reading and watching about conflict to ever consider putting myself or anyone i cared for in harms way.

I'd fight in extremis, but that's about it.

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primarch

Post subject: Too close for comfort?

Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:15 am

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Quote (Markconz @ 15 2005 June,19:02)

Quote (primarch @ 15 2005 June,15:05)

Why play wargames rather than 'homemaking' games with dolls then? Do you really truly believe nothing about you is reflected in the type of games you prefer to play?

Also if you had family in harms way in the middleeast could you really play an ultramodern game using exactly the same terrain and vehicles you see in photos from your family and on the news, and not be reminded of them and your concern for them? ?I couldn't. Maybe New York Pathologists are made of tougher stuff... :;):

No offense intended Primarch, I'm just interested ? ?

Hi!

No worries Markconz, this is a very thought provoking question.

This has a lot to due with personality. I have often been accused of having the empathy of a stone... :;):

I have a very "detached" personality. I view everything from a third person perpective, even things that effect me personally, directly and very deeply. Even when I argue, I dont yell. Its just my nature not to attach strong emotional content with anything I do. Perhaps its to insulate myself. A defense mechanism. I have studied enough psychology to realize this can be the case. After all I deal in death daily. Every day at work I diagnose cancers that are certain death for the unfortunate patient. I do not think I could function as expected of me if I attached to much emotion to that.

I think that has translated to other aspects of my life. Heck, even when my father died I was very "clinical" about it. When I remember it, there is "regret", but not unmanageable sadness.

Such is my nature.

So, it would almost be impossible for me to attach any emotion to a game. There have been some acquaintances that have perished in Iraq (current and past conflict). Granted it hasnt been close friends or family, but knowning myself, it wouldn't effect what game I played or would it produce any emotion. When I play I only see "game". Quite honestly my brain isnt wired to view it in any other way.

I dont think that makes me "strong". I dont buy into those stereotypes. It just makes me...well.. me... :;):

Primarch

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Markconz

Post subject: Too close for comfort?

Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:35 am

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Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
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Well said Primarch, and thanks for sharing so honestly about it all!

Part of my research involved seminars with the neurology department at the local hospital, and the 'detachment' the people who work there everyday had when labelling an MRI etc as 'terminal - weeks to months' was something that stood out to me. It was almost as though I initially expected a 'moment of silence' or something similar after the pronouncement was made!

Funnily enough I too am often described as unemotional and detached (especially by women

)! Plus I have to maintain a certain level of detachment and composure for counselling work of course, and people often have a hard time understanding how I deal with the awfulness of some peoples situations.

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Legion 4

Post subject: Too close for comfort?

Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:53 am

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
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Location: Ohio - USA

I could be that way when I was younger ... but as I got older ... I've become emotional. Maybe it all finally caught up with me ... I liked it better before ...

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

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