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A time of trial

 Post subject: A time of trial
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 8:01 pm 
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Ok, let's go step by step. First: troops and strategy, second characters.

QUESTIONS:

1) Could you define "armoured ogres". In general it is worth to say EXACTLY does a mini wears when you list it. I don't know if they have standard, great weapons, shields, additional hand weapons.... so I cannot really decide what use to give them exactly since their effectiveness changes from combination to combination. Thanks :)

2) Same for the way your characters are armed. Do they carry great weapons? hand weapons? Shields? ....

3) Do the knights have command? Which one?

You get my point :cool:


Working on the list. If you could answer those questions about equipment of your characters and units in the meantime I would really appreciate it, thx :)

Health and a lot of sixes,

Xavi

PS: the list can work, so stop thinking otherwise. It is simply that it might be a little bit more tricky than with a more "traditional" tournament chaos army list :)

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 Post subject: A time of trial
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 8:12 pm 
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Oh, I would like to know if you have a character on foot with shield. ANy of them? In general, if you can do that, gimme your full WYSIWYG dudes and troops. That would be a major help here :) Thx a bunch :)

Regards,

Xavi

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 Post subject: A time of trial
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 8:14 pm 
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Quote (Xavi @ 26 2004 Feb.,20:01)
Ok, let's go step by step. First: troops and strategy, second characters.

QUESTIONS:

1) Could you define "armoured ogres". In general it is worth to say EXACTLY does a mini wears when you list it. I don't know if they have standard, great weapons, shields, additional hand weapons.... so I cannot really decide what use to give them exactly since their effectiveness changes from combination to combination. Thanks :)

2) Same for the way your characters are armed. Do they carry great weapons? hand weapons? Shields? ....

3) Do the knights have command? Which one?

You get my point :cool:


Working on the list. If you could answer those questions about equipment of your characters and units in the meantime I would really appreciate it, thx :)

Health and a lot of sixes,

Xavi

PS: the list can work, so stop thinking otherwise. It is simply that it might be a little bit more tricky than with a more "traditional" tournament chaos army list :)

Ogres - heavy armour, hand weapons, shields
Knights - full command (champion, standard, musician)
Characters - Lord and champion on foot - double-handed weapon; champpion on horse - hand weapon; sorcerer - hand weapon and nasty scowl!

List can work. Must think positive. List can work. List can work. Think positive.....


Thanks, Xavi!

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 Post subject: A time of trial
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 10:26 pm 
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Hello there!

I have managed to make a list that is fairly ok :cool:

The only problem is that you will have to add a shield to one of your heroes on foot with great weapon. Apar from that all is WYSIWYG.

I will put the tactics to see what you think about it tomorrow :) 1999 points overall. I made quite a few changes to your list so you will have to think slightly different on how to use it, but I think you will do better.


CHARACTERS:

- Demon Prince
level 1 mage
daemionic reward that is like a dispel scroll


- Mage on foot.
Level 1,
2 dispel scrolls


- Legendary Paladin on steed.
Gaze of the Gods
Sword of Might


- Legendary paladin on foot
Double handed weapon
Armour of +1 toughness againt mundane attacks
Enchanted shield

as you can see, quite a few changes to your characters. I have tried to search for the most effective combo, not the one that respects your fluff or makes your general unbeatable. I think this is the best that I can do here. You have 3 scrolls and 4 dispel dice overall, so you have a fair magic defence, even if not an astonishing one, sorry.


TROOPS:

- 5 hounds

- 5 hounds

- 4 chosen chaos knights
Full command

- 16 chaos warriors on foot
Champion and standard bearer
War Banner
Great weapons and shields

- 10 chaos warriors
Great weapons and shields

- 6 Furies

- 3 Ogres with light armor and shield

NOTE: I don't have the chaos book with me, but a reference now and IIRC the ogres cannot wear heavy armor but must wear light armor. If I am mistaken I will try to correct this, but so far is what I have equiped them with. If there is something I have missed or missread tell me please


- Giant

- Spawn


TOTAL: 1999 points


Tactics comming tomorrow as I said. All is WYSIWYG except for the shield of your general (hero on foot) that you will have to add. Apart from that you have everything already done and painted up. :cool: It will be a central rupture for tactics, but let's leave that for tomorrow.


Health and a lot of sixes,

Xavi

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Massive Attack- Angel

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 Post subject: A time of trial
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 10:43 pm 
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Oh, review my math just in case. I cannot grant it to be correct since I am not a chaos player but an elf one (with a slight twist towards the dark side and the stunties, but that's an other issue)

Cheers,

Xavi

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 Post subject: A time of trial
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 8:51 am 
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hi Xavi,
just one problem - the daemon prince takes two hero slots, so I'd have to drop someone out.
Thanks.

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 Post subject: A time of trial
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:36 am 
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Sh*t! (sorry for the swerarword cybershadow/Netepic)

Well, that changes quite some things since the characters are thought to complement each other :( Back to the drawing board I guess. The idea of the DP was to give you a second flying unit that is a monster, not a skirmisher unit, and to add to your magic defence  to up to 4 dice, the bare minimum. Adding the 3rd scroll it ebnded up quite well. If you tell me this cannot be done.... well, we will see. I will try to see how I can do this this afternoon

Regards,

Xavi

PS: I hope the tournament is not TOMORROW, right?

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 Post subject: A time of trial
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 12:01 pm 
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Quote (Xavi @ 27 2004 Feb.,11:36)
PS: I hope the tournament is not TOMORROW, right?

er - yes?

Actually, 40K is tomorrow, WHFB on Sunday. :{

The DP idea WOULD have been great on al counts - have toleave it for >2000 point battles. :(
Don't take too much trouble Xavi -anyway, the dice will mess everything up as usual. Perhaps naming my space marines Legio Fausta (translation - The Lucky Legion) is tempting fate.
Still - thanks for the thoughts, Iappreciate the trouble.

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 Post subject: A time of trial
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 1:28 pm 
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Ok, posting later the list. I made 2 versions of it. The first is maxing out the magic offensiv epower (with a level 4 mage and an other level 2 mage) and the other is with 2 level 2 mages and some bits changed in the troops. The second combo gives you 5 dispel dice + 2 scrolls & 7 power dice. Not bad but not overwhelming. The first one is 8 dice only, but you have 2 spells more in addition to the extra die.

I tried combos with defensive magic, but it didn't work well given the limited number of units you have painted :(

Well, more on that in a few hours.

Cheers,

Xavi

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 Post subject: A time of trial
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 3:26 pm 
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Ok, there we go.

There are several alternatives.

The most important one is if you want to go magically ofensive or defensive. Given that we cannot have the flying unit (the DP) I would go for magically offensive.

Now, chaos is not the most suited army to develop such an army outside tzeench, and in that case it is awfully expensive to do so. So, we are somewhat limited in what we can do to boost the magic.

The 2 alternatives I see is to get a level 4 mage coupled with 1 or 2 level 2 mages, but since I think you prefer fighters there I will take 2 fighters and 2 mages. So, we end up with a level 4 and a level 2 or, in its defect, with 2 level 2 mages.

This does NOT grant complete magic supremacy, though. It is a nice combo, eve if some armies will beat you there, like stunties :( I will post both armies, but I feel more comfortable with the one containing 2 level 2 mages because it allows you to boost your units a little bit.

ARMY 1 (archmage)

great chaos sorcerer 320 pts
Level 4
Dispel scroll
Power stone

Chaos sorcerer 145 pts
Level 2
Dispel scroll

Gives you a fair magical power. It is not astonishing, but 8 dice are nothing to overlook, and you can boost that to 10 dice in a magic phase using the power stone. Fair magical defence as well with 5 dispel dice and 2 scrolls


Legendary champion 168 pts
Mounted on steed with barding
Shield
Sword of Might
Gaze of the gods OR Condemned armour (?) [the armour that makes the enemy repeat successful to hit rolls]

Well, the armor that makes the enemy repeat successful to hit rolls in H2H against you is certainly handy. I listed it in there in case you don't want to use the gaze of the gods. For what you said you dread that kind of items. Fair enough. This guy is likely to act all by its own. It is rock hard and has hitting power on its own, so he can go chasing weak enemy units himself without support. Useful as hell.I liove that kind of characters, or hate them when they are in the other side of the table, that is.


Legendary Champion 146 pts
Great weapon
Shield
Armour of +1 toughness against munane attacks


Your leader for the main warrior unit. You will have to equip him with a SHIELD, though. This is very important. If he does not carry a shield he is quite vulnerable to certain attacks, so I would prefer making sure he is rock hard and can survive a cavalry charge, you know :cool: If you feel like you are going against greater odds than he can survive do not hesitate to store the great weapon and draw your hand weapon + shield for a total of 2+ H2H save. Quite handy :) If you feel confident that your Toughness 5 + chaos armor is enough, go for the great weapon and smash the enemy without contempt boosting your CR :cool:


TROOPS:

6 Hounds 36 pts

5 Hounds 36 pts

15 Chaos warriors 304
Champion and standards bearer
War Banner
Great weapon and shields


NOTE: do not doubt in using your shields + hand weapons for the 3+ save in H2H. You need a rock hard unit, not to cause loads of damage with those guys, so if you think you can be beaten in case of using your great weapons, use your regular shields to ensure survivality. It is their mission, even if I am sure they can open a path of destruction if that is what you need :cool:



10 Chaos Warriors ? ? 170 pts
2 handed weapons and shields

Thise dudes are the "detachment" of yur main warrior unit. They are there to flank and break havock with great weapons. If a few of them die while they advance towards the enemy do not bother yourself a lot since you need 5 of them only to acomplish their mission of negting ranks and killing some dudes while your main unit gives you ranks and strd.

4 Chosen Knights ? 230 pts
Full command

Small but quite massive in their ability to sustain damage (even if a pair of dudes more would have been good) and inflict it themselves. Helped with the furies and 1 or 2 units of hounds acting as a screen/ diverters they can do very well


5 Furies ? ?75 pts


3 Ogres ? ? 111 pts
Light armor and shield ?


Chaos Spawn

Giant


This is list one. You have quite some magic power, but your units are small-ish. Not bad,mind you, but small. Use your character on steed, the furies and the magic to destroy the enemy fast and shooty units, starting with fliers, fast cavalry and then warmachines and missile units, taking advantage of targets of oportunity as well. Magic should do the trick here in burning holes in lightly armoured units (missile units, fast cavalry, most flying units and skirmishers).

Deployment could be something like that:

- Spawn
- Giant
- ogres
- large warriors + character
- 10 warriors + hounds screening them
- Knights + dogs screening
- mounted character (screened as well by hounds if possible)

The furies can go before your main unit if you want to screen tit for the first turn before launching them against enemy warmachines or whatever, but be careful, since you only have a small number of them so maybe keeping them behind the battleline as a reserve during your first turn would be a good idea.

The idea is to advance will all your units and try to break in the centre with the ogres + giant + large warriors. The ogres are the centre of your line, so the small unit of warriors should not be facing a strong opposition. That would meanthat they can move to flank whatever that your large knights are facing.

If everything works well, you should be able to break there and then split your forces: (remaining) ogres + giant + spawn towards one of the enemy flanks and the warriors, small warriors and knights to whipe out the other. You will see how it works in any case.

The mounted character is your reserve as I said above, as well as the furies. The dogs are here to divert the enemy and put him in a position that is better for you, so do not doubt at all in sacrifying them. In fact, almost everything is sacrifiable.
Hope that helped,

The second list will come later. The tactic is the same. What changes a little bit is the availability of units and the fact that you *only* have 7 power dice ;)

Hope that helps,

Xavi

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 Post subject: A time of trial
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 3:47 pm 
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Ok, here comes the second version:

CHARACTERS

The 2 same heroes from above:

- Hero on foot 146 pts

- Mounted hero: 168 pts

- Mage:  170 pts
Level 2
Dispel Scroll
Dispel Scroll

- Mage:  170 pts
Level 2
Energy familiar

Well, the changes are in the mages. You lose 1 energy dice but the combo is cheaper and you get a fair magic phase: You'll see what you prefer among the 2 lists. Look at the troops first, though :)

- 6 Hounds

- 5 Hounds

- 15 CHOSEN chaos warriors
War banner
Champ and standard bearer
Great weapon and shields

Well, as you can see the effectiveness of this unit has sky-rocketed :cool:. The alternative (highly useful as well) is to make the smakk 10 warrior unit to be the chosen ones. Guive them a champ in that case as well and boost this unit a little bit with the saved points. Both alternatives are OK to me. Maybe even better the one with the small unit being the chosen one

- 10 Chaos Warriors
Great weapons and shields


- 4 Chosen Knights
Full command


- 6 Furies


- 3 Ogres
Shield and light armour


- Spawn


- Giant


Same tactics as above. Hope all this rant helped. I passed over your 3 wound lord as you can see. The fact that a character dies or lives is completely irrelevant as long as he does the job. In background games this might not be the truth, but in tournament play do not doubt about sacrifycing a character if that can save one of your units. Puting a mage to be charged by a unit of 20 boar boys is a good idea instead of allowing those to charge your main unit. They will kill him and run it down, hiting your main unit. Then, the combat will be resolved next turn, that it hapopens to be YOUR turn, so you  use your regular warriors and charge him in the flank

Obviously is better to do this with your dogs, but sometimes you don't have the dogs available, and if the combat is generalized around mages will lose most of their usefulness, so you can afford to do this. Only to show a possible use for your characters.

A last thing is that you should NOT put your mage inside units unlessthe enemy uses heavens lores (almost everybody that can....) or can threaten them somehow. It is better to allow them to run rampant so that they cannot be charged directly and can move freely around your battle line shoting whatever that annoys you :cool:

Pfeew. I hope all this will get some use. Long time since I wrote all this much about an army list that is not my own :)

The problem you will find is that its me the one that has designed and thought about how to use the list, not you. This will decrease its value for you for sure, but you should do fine none the less. I expect you to report AT LEAST some draws because you are too negative for your own good here, hehehe. Some victorious reports would be greatly appreciated ;)

Regards,

Xavi

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 Post subject: A time of trial
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 4:32 pm 
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Wow! What can I say, thanks Xavi! I have loads to digest now - I'm still not sure which choice to go for - will see. I have to reread your points slowly and carefully before I decide, although I'm (at the moment) preferring the L4 mage option.

Thanks again - will report on achievements (or lack of!) as soon as I get the time following the two tournaments.
Thanks again.


:D

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 Post subject: A time of trial
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 4:36 pm 
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You are welcome :) Now, go out tomorrow and beat the poo out of the enemy armies, and rember those reports!! :D

Health and a lot of sixes,

Xavi

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 Post subject: A time of trial
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 9:58 am 
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News flash
WH tournament - as disasterous as ever.....

WH40K - 6th out of 22 - I'm usually down at around 20 or 21! Huzzah!!!!! (although sportsmanship and painting helped a lot!)

more later.

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 Post subject: A time of trial
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2004 8:36 pm 
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Brief report on WHFB -
lots of failed leadership tests (unmodified...with Mark of Chaos Undivided rerolls); a giant who failed to terrorize a single enemy; loads of attacks missed; and totally ineffective plaguebearers - this is the story of the first two games - a solid loss against chaos beastmen, and a massacre by the orcs. Xavi, I took the plaguebearers instead of the warriors - mainly for painting quality reasons - I got full points for painting, but still did not make it in first place.
Didn't play too badly - supporting units, giant distracting people, hounds trying to flank -  but nothing worked well.
In game three I achieved a massacre myself (for once) - against a shooty Dark Elf army I charged directly across to minimize shooting damage (still managing to lose two 1+ save knights to strength 3 bolts...  :( ) - the furies broke the harpies in an aerial combat, the knights chased the Corsairs + champion off, and the dogs got killed by some Dark Riders. The spawn flailed around ineffectually generally hindering everyone. The giant, though, ashamed of his meagre work - two Centigors and two orcs killed so far - charged a Cold One Knight unit, picked up the general, and dumped him is his lunch bag, Cold One and all! In the subsequent turn, as the knights charged the Corsairs they had failed to catch previously,  the Giant saw the Cold Ones off and practically won the game single handed. The Furies killed a bolt thrower crew, the plaguebearers saw off a unit of Dark Riders, one of crossbowmen, and a second bolt thrower crew all in one combat. With the help of a champion the helpful giant cornered a sorceress and smashed her (no taste, these giants). The ogres trundled along holding a quarter, and the game was over.
Third game saw a hard fought battle against the Tomb Kings. Mid-way there I had advanced and was charging all over the place. Then the knights + champion charged and failed to cause a single wound on a unit of Tomb Guard, were chased away, and things started to crumble. The spawn held the chariots up a bit, the giant thumped away with his club without effect, then (remembering his appetite) ate a Tomb Prince - suffering from indigestion, he took no further interest in the battle and only managed to die a couple of turns later. Must have choked on all those bandages. The Furies managed to charge and kill the hierophant - and the entire army started to crumble, and my general lashed out at the Tomb King! I had high hopes, but the remaining Undead were enough to resist my general and a handful oif Plaguebearers until my last model to die - my general - fell to the Tomb King.
Thus, I guess, ends my overlong Chaos period in WHFB.

Next up - after a long rethink - Clan Skryre!

I don't even know my ranking in the tournament, but it must be something like 28th out of 30.... my next report - on the 40K tourney - presents better news.

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