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3d Vassalish Project

 Post subject: 3d Vassalish Project
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:59 pm 
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Quote: (zombocom @ 23 Jul. 2009, 00:51 )


Check out the vassel epic forums for complaints/suggestions as well.


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http://www.vassal40k.com/forum/index.php

I wouldn't hard code movement. Stuff like transporting units, counter charges, infiltrate etc etc is too much hassle surely.

Anyway

You must have a 2d or close as possible way of taking snapshots for batreps :)
It must be able to run on a netbook :)

Units

Base them. I think it makes things a lot easier. Use warmaster multiples of bases for vehicles (1 for preds, 2 for bigger stuff like land raiders etc). To avoid problems with orientation I would suggest making infantry bases round. If you want other shapes as well you will have to have some way of turning them that doesn't give someone an extra cm of movement. Allow bases to be different colours by formation to allow different formations to be easily identified. If possible have some sort of unit notes that open in a separate window for people to type whatever in. Have a system for people sticking their own sprite in if they so desire if possible.

Board

Have 'clumps' of terrain available, so its a simply matter of plonking 12 down on a 6x4 and also if possible have a few 'balanced' pre generated boards.

Please please mark out deployment zones, 15cm radius around objectives and the half way line. Obviously there are 3 possible configs depending on playing which corner or side.

Have some way of marking points on the board for the purpose of plotting drop points and bombardments, preferably without the other player knowing!

Game

Have a 'tape measure' that can be used by either player at any time to check distances. This should hopefully persist until cancelled, no matter what else is used.

Units
Allow them to be taken off the board at any time and put back on as appropriate, to allow air extractions and insertions, transport etc.
It would be fantastic if they could project their ZOC's, this would also help maintain coherency. I know scouts have 10cm ones and WE have different coherency, but as a starting point the 5cm ZOC should extend from every base.

Movement
Should be a move tracker. That is you pick up a unit and shift it forward with a counter saying how far it has gone. Should persist until the next unit is moved. If the unit is placed down the line and tally should persist, so if say you were marching you could measure out 3 15cm moves and they would be shown to the other side for the purposes of transparency, overwatch etc. With an undu function :)

Firing
Should be base to base. Hopefully based on clicking a unit and dragging a line out to the target with range counted off as the mouse moves.

Barrages
At most basic allow to be placed anywhere. If you are all advanced you can set up a system for saying whether or not a unit it caught based on the percentage of base covered - say 15-20%?

Dice roller
Need one of these :)

Markers
Need objectives that  project their 15cm control range. Need blastmarkers.

Reporting function
Go wild. Base is a 2d screenshot of battlefield, but if you can add arrows and stuff to show moves or maybe have the whole game recorded and played back at high speed that would be great :)

Anything else
Off hand all I can think of is being able to see the whole battlefield on the screen if the player so desires and terrain not blocking the players view (they had units go to silouets in some games when obscured). Need an off table area for storing units in play but not dead. Should be savable to return to later. Chat function isn't nessecery as we could use messenger thingies, but would I guess be nice. Need a log of what has been touched and what hasn't.

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 Post subject: 3d Vassalish Project
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 4:53 pm 
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Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 23 Jul. 2009, 23:59 )

I wouldn't hard code movement. Stuff like transporting units, counter charges, infiltrate etc etc is too much hassle surely.

Precisely. I just intend to show the distance moved constantly to both players. While it would look great to have a circle of possible movement around each selected unit, it'd be a huge amount more work, and as you say wouldn't work for varient move distances.


You must have a 2d or close as possible way of taking snapshots for batreps :)
It must be able to run on a netbook :)


Hmmm. 2D may be a bit of a challenge. I can certainly have a fixed camera above the "table" to be used for taking screenshots, but it'd be a perspective rather than orthogonal view. I could reduce the perspective effect a lot by having the camera a long way up and zooming in I think.

I'll keep the computer requirements as low as possible, but a 3d graphics card of some description will be required. Most notebooks should run it fine I believe.

As an aside it'll come with versions for Windows, Mac and Linux.




Units

Base them. I think it makes things a lot easier. Use warmaster multiples of bases for vehicles (1 for preds, 2 for bigger stuff like land raiders etc). To avoid problems with orientation I would suggest making infantry bases round. If you want other shapes as well you will have to have some way of turning them that doesn't give someone an extra cm of movement. Allow bases to be different colours by formation to allow different formations to be easily identified. If possible have some sort of unit notes that open in a separate window for people to type whatever in. Have a system for people sticking their own sprite in if they so desire if possible.
[quote]

Yes, initially at least I'll be including a range of set base sizes with the module, for 20mm square, 25mm square, 40x10mm, 25mm round etc etc. Initially these will be flat boxes with a sprite picture on top, but it'd be easy to add models to them if I could be bothered (though of course the IP risks are much higher with models).

Models will measure all move distances and rotations from their centres. This could mean gaining or losing a CM or so of movement, but that has to be something for the players to sort out, as dealing with it ingame is a lot of work.

[quote]
Board

Have 'clumps' of terrain available, so its a simply matter of plonking 12 down on a 6x4 and also if possible have a few 'balanced' pre generated boards.


Terrain-wise I was planning on having a "terrain box" containing 3 or 4 different buildings, a couple of hills, a couple of woods etc. Obviously it'd be no problem to place multiples of the same terrain into a map.

Saving and loading of terrain layouts isn't something I'd planned, but it's not a lot of work, so it could certainly be added, along with some preset table layouts.


Please please mark out deployment zones, 15cm radius around objectives and the half way line. Obviously there are 3 possible configs depending on playing which corner or side.


Hmm. This is of course something epic specific, which I'm looking to avoid as much as possible for IP reasons. It could be possible to include a different "table level" in the Epic module which would have the possible deployment zones marked on it.

As for objective radii, again this is pretty Epic specific. I won't be having objective counters per se, but I could certainly have one of the unnamed counters in the "counters box" be a counter with a 15cm radius ring around it, to be used for whatever the players decide...


Have some way of marking points on the board for the purpose of plotting drop points and bombardments, preferably without the other player knowing!
[quote]

Pretty tricky, as it's very Epic specific. Hmm. I suppose it could be possible to have a "secret counter" which only displays on your own screen, and can't be moved once placed. There could be a button to press to reveal it to your opponent.

This is possible to do, but it's not an immediate priority.

[quote]
Game

Have a 'tape measure' that can be used by either player at any time to check distances. This should hopefully persist until cancelled, no matter what else is used.


Yep, a tape measure will definately be included and can certainly be made persistent. I'll probably make it consist of 2 ingame objects with a line between them, where each end can be picked up by either player. Obviously it'll display the current distance all the time to both players.


Units
Allow them to be taken off the board at any time and put back on as appropriate, to allow air extractions and insertions, transport etc.


Not a problem. The interface will feel like flying over a large table in a room, and it'll be easy to add a side-table or two in the room for placing offboard miniatures.


It would be fantastic if they could project their ZOC's, this would also help maintain coherency. I know scouts have 10cm ones and WE have different coherency, but as a starting point the 5cm ZOC should extend from every base.


Very Epic specific, and so unlikely to be included.


Should be a move tracker. That is you pick up a unit and shift it forward with a counter saying how far it has gone. Should persist until the next unit is moved. If the unit is placed down the line and tally should persist, so if say you were marching you could measure out 3 15cm moves and they would be shown to the other side for the purposes of transparency, overwatch etc. With an undu function :)


Definately having a move tracker and an undo function (though it'll most likely only be able to undo one or two moves). I'm still thinking on the design of the move tracker, I want it to be as clear and intuitive as possible.


Should be base to base. Hopefully based on clicking a unit and dragging a line out to the target with range counted off as the mouse moves.


I wasn't really planning on having any specific ingame firing rules; I was planning for this to be a function of the ingame multi-use tape measure. It's effectively the same thing.


Barrages
At most basic allow to be placed anywhere. If you are all advanced you can set up a system for saying whether or not a unit it caught based on the percentage of base covered - say 15-20%?


Again this is very Epic specific so a cause of IP issues. There will of course be a selection of apropriately sized, partially transparent counters in the counter box of course.


Dice roller
Need one of these :)


Yes, I'm thinking of having 10 buttons in the dice panel, numbers 1-10, and clicking on one of them will display that number of randomly determined dice results below the buttons in the panel. As for a physics-based, actual dice roller; certainly not intially. I do have apropriate code available however, so it may be added for a laugh at some point.


Markers
Need objectives that  project their 15cm control range. Need blastmarkers.


Again, non-epic-specific 15cm radius rings and orange tokens will be available in the counters panel.


Reporting function
Go wild. Base is a 2d screenshot of battlefield, but if you can add arrows and stuff to show moves or maybe have the whole game recorded and played back at high speed that would be great :)


This is an area where the engine does struggle. It's possible to record the whole game from the player's point of view for sped-up playback, but not from the camera position above the table (unless you spent the whole game playing from that position). The reporting mode in general is an area where I've been struggling, planning-wise.


Anything else
Off hand all I can think of is being able to see the whole battlefield on the screen if the player so desires and terrain not blocking the players view (they had units go to silouets in some games when obscured). Need an off table area for storing units in play but not dead. Should be savable to return to later. Chat function isn't nessecery as we could use messenger thingies, but would I guess be nice. Need a log of what has been touched and what hasn't.


I can certainly add a mode which makes all terrain semi-transparent, or draws the obscured models on top but differently. Obviously it's not an initial priority, but it can certainly be done.

Off-table area I've covered, no problem there.

There will be a primitive chat function, but I'd obviously recommend an external chat program (or preferably Skype).

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 Post subject: 3d Vassalish Project
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 4:58 pm 
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The ability to log and replay vassal games is the one reason its a breeze to produce batrep's of games played via vassal. Now its not a quick process, but a simple one all the same.

(Hena, I will get around to doing the write up of our scions game. If not tonight early next week I promise.)


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 Post subject: 3d Vassalish Project
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:00 pm 
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I'll look into it. It may well be possible to replay from the 2d camera position, I'm not sure.

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 Post subject: 3d Vassalish Project
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:54 pm 
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Quote: (zombocom @ 24 Jul. 2009, 16:53 )

Very Epic specific, and so unlikely to be included.

Again this is very Epic specific so a cause of IP issues. There will of course be a selection of apropriately sized, partially transparent counters in the counter box of course.

For all the Epic specific bits - they aren't really you know. Those mechanics are used by dozens of games. Having a unit shadow that can be set to 5 or 10cms from base can be used for all sorts of systems!
Yes, initially at least I'll be including a range of set base sizes with the module, for 20mm square, 25mm square, 40x10mm, 25mm round etc etc. Initially these will be flat boxes with a sprite picture on top


Sticking to round would I think make things easier - no worrying about unit rotation and so on, easier to do zoc's etc etc.

Models will measure all move distances and rotations from their centres. This could mean gaining or losing a CM or so of movement, but that has to be something for the players to sort out, as dealing with it ingame is a lot of work.

Hm, but how does that work with CC? Thats base to base. having round bases of course...

Hmm. This is of course something epic specific, which I'm looking to avoid as much as possible for IP reasons. It could be possible to include a different "table level" in the Epic module which would have the possible deployment zones marked on it.

As for objective radii, again this is pretty Epic specific. I won't be having objective counters per se, but I could certainly have one of the unnamed counters in the "counters box" be a counter with a 15cm radius ring around it, to be used for whatever the players decide...

Its not copyrighted. Its in too many rulesets to be.
Pretty tricky, as it's very Epic specific. Hmm. I suppose it could be possible to have a "secret counter" which only displays on your own screen, and can't be moved once placed. There could be a button to press to reveal it to your opponent.

Again inordinately generic.

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 Post subject: 3d Vassalish Project
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:58 pm 
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Whatever elements can be made generic will be generic. It'll make little difference ingame, all it'll mean is that blast markers aren't labeled as such etc. All the functionality will be there, just in as IP friendly a way as possible.

You're definitey convincing me of the need for round bases, though rotation will of course still be needed for aircraft, arcs of sight etc.




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 Post subject: 3d Vassalish Project
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:53 pm 
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Quote: (zombocom @ 24 Jul. 2009, 11:53 )

Precisely. I just intend to show the distance moved constantly to both players. While it would look great to have a circle of possible movement around each selected unit, it'd be a huge amount more work, and as you say wouldn't work for varient move distances.

It need not be that complicated. VASSAL 40K had options for 2", 6", 12" and 24" circles that could be applied around the model. That covers most ranges in the game. If you want to know if you're within charge range, you just click on the 6" circle and you'll know. You don't need to code an awful lot, just allow us a "template" that we can center on the model with 5cm, 15cm, 30cm, 45cm and 60cm. We can work out which one we need for movement or for shooting on a case-by-case basis.

Being able to "click on" ZOC for most units would indeed be a useful addition. The only big catch would be the fact that these ranges need to measure from the edge of the model not the center. Easy for infantry, more difficult for vehicles unless you give each "class" of vehicle a "base" of a given size.





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 Post subject: 3d Vassalish Project
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:02 pm 
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First quick shot of where I'm at so far; creating the interface layout. Obviously the green room is just a test map:


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 Post subject: 3d Vassalish Project
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:03 pm 
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Second progress shot with graphics temporarily yoinked from Vassal. The three buttons at the top are "Units", "Terrain" and "Counters", and they each open the apropriate selection in the box below:


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 Post subject: 3d Vassalish Project
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:52 pm 
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Having just had a power cut while playing vassel a way for a player who crashes to come back in :)

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 Post subject: 3d Vassalish Project
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 11:14 pm 
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Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 25 Jul. 2009, 22:52 )

Having just had a power cut while playing vassel a way for a player who crashes to come back in :)

That's already supported by the engine I'm using.

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 Post subject: 3d Vassalish Project
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 11:53 pm 
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What should I do for characters? The most obvious answer (and the route Vassal went down I believe) is to simply have every possible unit/character combination drawn up and available for selection. However, this of course increases the number of units per list dramatically, and is obviously a lot more work on the sprite side of things.

What if I had a way to "attach" units together? One model would automatically hover over the other and follow it around, and display a name in the format "Unit 1 with Unit 2", such as "Space Marine Tactical Squad with Captain". This would probably be a more elegant solution, and much less work sprite-wise.

Any other ideas?




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 Post subject: 3d Vassalish Project
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 12:25 am 
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Have a base big enough for the character to be added if needed. After all an infantry base is 3-7 men and non standard bases of something other than 5 are even more non GW standard :)

Incidentally don't feel at a more advance stage you have to stick to 5 men to a base. orks and guard say should be 7 :)

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 Post subject: 3d Vassalish Project
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 12:31 am 
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Indeed.

Incidentally, if anyone wants to help, sprite-conversion-wise, please let me know.

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 Post subject: 3d Vassalish Project
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 12:34 am 
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I have a lot of time during week, but no knowledge, so how tricky is it? :)

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