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Squats (Demiurg) in E:A

rpr

Post subject: Squats (Demiurg) in E:A

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:04 am

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Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:32 pm
Posts: 516

(Moscovian @ Dec. 18 2007,18:32)

QUOTE

Thunderfire might be very good against Flyers, but I still dislike something that has practically no other use - ok it can sit on objective but is destroyed so easily. On the last tournament, of my 3 opponents 2 had no flyers at all and the last one had one squadron worth 250..
Of course if you do not play blind games, then things would be different.

rpr, don't you think that a list should be defined by its weaknesses and limitations as well as its strengths? I remember ePilgrim specifically building certain limitations into the list on purpose such as this one.

It is not a limitation, it is a gamble :]

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daemonkin

Post subject: Squats (Demiurg) in E:A

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:40 pm

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Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:32 am
Posts: 799
Location: Belfast Northern Ireland

I had a play against the Demiurg 2 weeks ago but i don't know which list it was but was fun to go in blind against them.

Thousand Sons
Garrison BTS Retinue
4 Land Raiders and 4 Pred
Reaver equiv
Feral equiv
Bikes - discs
Terminators

Squat
Ironbreakers
armsmen
mole mortars
collosus
leviatan
trikes
overlord

It took me 2 rounds of combat to break the ironbreakers after shooting the hell out of them and assaulting with termies.

Went up against the trikes with disca and thought I had won marginally only for squat to say all his trikes inspired and he won and I routed.

WE are nasty firepower but by avoiding them and picking my fights I managed to pull off the win.

Some pics (camera phone) and game report on my site.

Overall, a fun list to play against although their slow speed will mean that they tend to play defensively.

D.

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epilgrim

Post subject: Squats (Demiurg) in E:A

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:33 am

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Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2003 12:28 pm
Posts: 362

daemonkin,

glad you enjoyed the encounter.

for speed have your opponent use hearthguard cavalry, iron eagles or tunellers. they make up for the pokey stuff.

the gorgons on march orders can get where they need to be too, they are very tough and not slowed by terrain.

While most of their units are slow, the Demiurg are very hard to flank and assault.

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rpr

Post subject: Squats (Demiurg) in E:A

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:53 am

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Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:32 pm
Posts: 516

(epilgrim @ Dec. 20 2007,01:33)

QUOTE

for speed have your opponent use hearthguard cavalry, iron eagles or tunellers. they make up for the pokey stuff.

I would like to herar a bit clarification about tunnellers... the rules seem to work this way:

1. before the battle, in planetfall deployment phase, decide the target coordinate and put the tunnellers with cradles to your table edge
2. at any turn, launch tunnellers with sustained fire order. But alternatively you can move around?
3. after one or two full turns, they emerge. So, if I launch them in first turn, they can emerge on third or fourth turn depending of the target coordinate...

But because of 2) would it not make more sense to define the target coordinate in step 2, not 1? What if I define them to arrive to enemy side on step 1 and then cannot perform step 2 in the first game turn (blast marker and initiative failure) - they cannot be launched anymore as they cannot arrive in time? (most of the time)

Mush more sense would be either:

a) handle as planetfall with no cradles on the table. Would also take care of "ultra cheap extra activation" of cradles. As normal tunneller limitation, cannot arrive too early to enemy side..., OR

b) cradles with tunnellers are handled like normal formations. So they are setup like rest, can move around etc. and infantry can board/dismount. When activated, they can decide (with sustained fire) to launch the tunnellers. The target coordinate is written down and tunnellers disappear. They can then arrive after next turn or later. (so, if I launch them at the first turn, they can arrive at the start of turn 3)

In either case, I would remove surfaced tunnellers like drop pods are removed. Or leave them as infantry cover which cannot be activated. The idea of paying 30 points to get +2 activations (eventually) is odd.
And Mole seems a bit bigger than 2 termites :]

(when I ever dust off my squats I might try these out)

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daemonkin

Post subject: Squats (Demiurg) in E:A

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:04 pm

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Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:32 am
Posts: 799
Location: Belfast Northern Ireland

I assumed that Stubborn (inspiring) stacked so that a formation of 6 bikers got +6 to res in combat?

If I am wrong then the squats should have been spanked by my termies and discs! :devil:

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epilgrim

Post subject: Squats (Demiurg) in E:A

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:39 pm

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Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2003 12:28 pm
Posts: 362

the Tuneller rules are distinct and different. Planetfall/drop pod rules were considered, but it was much more challenging to try something different, work it out, make it fair...and fun. Leaving the models on the table and setting them up first "feels right."

I have played games where the tunellers launch in the nick of time...and I have had them incinerated in their cradles, but both my opponent and I enjoyed the games they have been featured in.

the rules for tunellers allow for three options; going short, going long and bluffing.You can go short to anywhere on your table edge. on turns 2+, You can go long to anywhere on the board on turns 3+, or you could bluff. Because they have a delayed effect, but start on the table the opponent must decide what threat level they represent, if they are ignored, they could cost the opponent the game, the same thing could happen if they focus on them too much. You may not get to use them as intended, but they can influence the way the game plays out.

As to what makes sense, it has played quite well over the past two years. You appear to be making a number of assumptions that have not come to pass when they have been played.

The formation is set up and remains where it is until launch, then the cradles and any orphans form the non-combatant formation. The tunellers show up disgorge thier troops and sit there. Yes they are formations, but they both die like everything else and the opponent is rewarded for taking the time to wipe them out, so it is a wash in the end...and fun.

BTW - the stats are from Jervis and the Collector Section of the book, I saw no need to alter their profile.

In some other the lists the tunellers are allowed to move around and fight like tanks, I thought that was wacky...regardless the rulebook provides tuneller rules theat are generic treating them like drop pods (p. 168). The Demiurg list does something different.

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rpr

Post subject: Squats (Demiurg) in E:A

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:26 pm

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Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:32 pm
Posts: 516

(epilgrim @ Dec. 20 2007,14:39)

QUOTE

the rules for tunellers allow for three options; going short, going long and bluffing.You can go short to anywhere on your table edge. on turns 2+, You can go long to anywhere on the board on turns 3+, or you could bluff.

How so? The rules state that they take one full turn to travel to own side and two full turns to travel to opponent side.

So, if I launch them in the first turn, they travel the full second turn and arrive to my side at the start of the turn 3. For opponent's side, it takes until turn 4.

I do not say they are bad, just a bit .. confusing. I would never want tunnellers that move around after they arrive. Just wonder why they need to be set up before any garrisons like Goliaths and Thunderfires, for example... very odd.

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epilgrim

Post subject: Squats (Demiurg) in E:A

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:54 am

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Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2003 12:28 pm
Posts: 362

to Daemonkin and Hena -

Stubborn: Demiurg Formations (except for Autonoms) get a +1 in assault resolution, not each unit. The lone exception is the Merchant Prince due to his status as Supreme Commander.

to rpr -

TBM: the turn they launch counts as their first full move of travelling. If the wording seems unclear I could re-write, but to be honest, you're the first person that mis-understood the implementation (or at least spoke up).

If you were to try the list out, what size game would you play and what formations would you choose?

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rpr

Post subject: Squats (Demiurg) in E:A

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:10 am

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Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:32 pm
Posts: 516

(epilgrim @ Dec. 21 2007,05:54)

QUOTE

TBM: the turn they launch counts as their first full move of travelling. If the wording seems unclear I could re-write, but to be honest, you're the first person that mis-understood the implementation (or at least spoke up).

If you were to try the list out, what size game would you play and what formations would you choose?

Much better :] I have this rules lawyer way of reading them... so just have to make sure.

Here is one 2995 point list:
Trikes (8 + cavalry HG w/ T.F.) 325
Iron Eagles (4) 200
Iron-Breakers (6 + HG w/ T.F.) + 4 rhinos 365
Bikes (6) 200
Armsmen (4 + HG w/ T.F.) + 3 rhinos 305
Steadhold Retinue (6 w/ Prince) 400 (maybe as cavalry?)
Mole Mortars (6) + 3 Thudd Guns 350
Colossus 450
Overlord 200 (love the model.. has 3 but cannot fit into list, no way when they are in WE section =)
Land Train + Car 300 (has anybody ever used Engineer's Battle Car ? As sandhogs are from the War Engine quota...)

This is like 'quick strike demiurg'. Jus to test out as many unit types as possible, with regards to what old models I have...

PS: the Demirg army list is great work. Just as a rule lawyer and game designer has to ask about some of those which strike me as "oddities" or out-of-balance things :]

..hm, "AMTL" version of Demiurg... for each MCF taken, can take up to one other formation...

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epilgrim

Post subject: Squats (Demiurg) in E:A

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:46 pm

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Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2003 12:28 pm
Posts: 362

rpr -

quick notes on your list.

the list is over by 95 points...drop the land train from this list and pick up another Overlord, they work to great effect in pairs (IMO).

What formation would you put the Iron Eagle Spotter in? the obvious choice for me has always been the Iron Eagles Airwing, but what were your thoughts?

As a general suggestion, I rarely swap out for the Hearthguard unit in a Brotherhood formation unless I have added an affiliate (especially Armsmen formations).

the MP in a Steadholder's Cavalry formation is a personal favorite!

lastly as Hena noted 9 BP with ignore cover is hard to deal with, if you can fit it, the 9 Mole Mortar LGB is very powerful. However I myself do like the utility of mixed heavy weapons so keep this for now and see how they do.

good list!

PS the land train with added cars, especially the Engineer's cars is a real tough unit. the sandhogs assaulting from the car (or cars!) is a nasty affair. Ask Moscovian how it feels...HAHAHAHAHA!!!

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rpr

Post subject: Squats (Demiurg) in E:A

Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:17 am

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Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:32 pm
Posts: 516

There is now batrep of Demiurg in Imperial Guard section.

Is it deliberate that Particle Shielding does not give any extra help against Lance weapons while it does against macro weapons?

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epilgrim

Post subject: Squats (Demiurg) in E:A

Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 4:21 pm

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Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2003 12:28 pm
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Is it deliberate that Particle Shielding does not give any extra help against Lance weapons while it does against macro weapons?

Wow...you learn something every time someone ask a question...well, I cannot think of a reason why a Lance weapon would not be treated like a Macro Weapon. I'll mull it over for a few days.

Anyone see a reason why Particle Shielding should not ignore Lance Weapons special ability, the same way it ignores Macro-Weapons special ability?

As rpr points out as it reads currently Lance Weapons are resolved the same as Titan Killers when hitting Particle Shielding, does not seem to make sense to me...did I miss this or was there a good reason to leave it as it it?

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Moscovian

Post subject: Squats (Demiurg) in E:A

Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 4:34 pm

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Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:32 pm
Posts: 6414
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania USA

I kinda like the fact that the lance weapons can get through where others can't. The particle shielding fluff struck me as a reaction to an action (the macro hits harder so the shield pushes back harder). Lance weapons always seemed like the weapon where they were placing extreme energy at a single point and therefore would bypass extra armor. It seems fun to have them vulnerable to lance weapons. Besides, those WEs don't need ANY extra help.

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