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BKC 1940 France

 Post subject: BKC 1940 France
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 9:46 am 
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Hello!

I started again BKC (Blitzkrieg Commander) and decided to consentrade on France vs. Germany! So now I have ordered my germans and I am thinking how to make french.

First of all, how many tanks are in tank platoon/company/battalion (France and Germany). What kind of tank units did the French use and what was their composition and use? What kind of infantry units French used, what was their composition?  

What commanders used as transportation (French)?

Colors for French? Tanks, infantry, commanders. Links, photos and knowledge welcome!

:)

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 Post subject: BKC 1940 France
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 1:59 pm 
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Welcome to BKC

TOE wise I'd recommend joining the Yahoo group here http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/TOandEs/

A nice rundown of French armour, colours etc can be found here http://www.ghqmodels.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2768

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 Post subject: BKC 1940 France
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 4:27 pm 
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France '40 is another campaign I find interesting. Most of my "Library" is still in storage. But I remember, the French tank Forces used R35s, H39s, S35s, Char B1s, AMCs, D2s, FT-17s(1st used in WWI !), Panhard Armored Cars, and I'm sure I forgot some. They had a lot of different AFVs. And I'll have to check out those sites, "J". ?I remember the French camo patterns were pretty elaborate. I built some in my distant past, in HO/OO scale.




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 Post subject: BKC 1940 France
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 4:45 pm 
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And the GHQ site itself has some nice pics of their model French AFVs ... In various camo and paint jobs.

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 Post subject: BKC 1940 France
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 5:04 pm 
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(Legion 4 @ May 14 2008,11:27)
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But I remember, the French tank Forces used R35s, H39s, S35s, Char B1s, AMCs, D2s, FT-17s(1st used in WWI !), Panhard Armored Cars, and I'm sure I forgot some.

I think you've listed all of the most widely used French tanks. A lot of people forget that French armor was for the most part superior to German armor of the same period.

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 Post subject: BKC 1940 France
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 6:47 pm 
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(Dwarf Supreme @ May 14 2008,10:04)
QUOTE

(Legion 4 @ May 14 2008,11:27)
QUOTE
But I remember, the French tank Forces used R35s, H39s, S35s, Char B1s, AMCs, D2s, FT-17s(1st used in WWI !), Panhard Armored Cars, and I'm sure I forgot some.

I think you've listed all of the most widely used French tanks. A lot of people forget that French armor was for the most part superior to German armor of the same period.

Very true but training and doctrine killed them.

One of the biggest design flaws of the French was a lack of a deticated Tank commander.  Similar to tearly Soviets takes.

The Meuse crossing is one of the most interesting battles in my opinion

"At Sedan the Meuse Line consisted of a strong defensive belt, constructed six kilometres deep according to the modern principles of zone defence on slopes overlooking the Meuse valley and strengthened by 103 pillboxes, manned by 147th Fortress Infantry Regiment. The deeper positions were held by the 55th Infantry Division (55e DI). This was only a grade ?B? reserve division, but already reinforcements were arriving; in the morning of 13 May, 71st DI was inserted to the east of Sedan, allowing 55th DI to narrow its front by a third and deepen its position to over ten kilometres. Furthermore it had a superiority in artillery to the German units present on 13 May.[38] The French command fully expected that the Germans would only attack such formidable defences when a large infantry and artillery force had been built up, a concentration that apparently could not be completed before 20 May, given the traffic congestion ? a date very similar to Halder's original projection. It thus came as a complete surprise when crossing attempts were made as early as the fourth day of the invasion.

On 13 May, the German XIX Army Corps forced three crossings near Sedan, executed by the motorised infantry regiments of 1st, 2nd and 10th Panzerdivision, reinforced by the elite Gro?deutschland infantry regiment. Instead of slowly massing artillery as the French expected, the Germans concentrated most of their tactical bomber force to punch a hole in a narrow sector of the French lines by carpet bombing (punctuated by dive bombing). Hermann G?ring had promised Guderian that there would be an extraordinary heavy air support of a continual eight hour air attack, from 8am until dusk.[39] Luftflotte 3, supported by Luftflotte 2, executed the heaviest air bombardment the world had yet witnessed and the most intense by the Luftwaffe during the war. .[40] The Luftwaffe committed two Stukageschwader to the assault flying 300 sorties against French positions, with Stukageschwader 77 alone flying 201 individual missions.[41] By the nine Kampfgeschwader (medium bomber units - See Luftwaffe Organization) committed, a total of 3,940 sorties were flown, often in Gruppe strength.[42]


Junkers Ju 87B Stuka bombarding French positions around Sedan.The forward platoons and pillboxes of the 147 RIF were little affected by the bombardment and held their positions throughout most of the day, initially repulsing the crossing attempts of 2nd and 10th Panzerdivision on their left and right; however in the centre of the river bend there was a gap in the line of bunkers. In the late afternoon Gro?deutschland penetrated this position, trying to quickly exploit this opportunity. The deep French zone defence had been devised to defeat just this kind of infiltration tactics; it now transpired however that the morale of the deeper company positions of the 55th DI had been broken by the impact of the German air attacks: they had been routed or were too dazed to any longer offer effective resistance. The French supporting artillery batteries had fled, and this created an impression among the remaining main defence line troops of the 55e DI that they were isolated and abandoned. They too went into rout by the late evening. At a cost of a few hundred casualties[43] the German infantry had penetrated up to eight kilometres into the French defence zone by midnight; even then most of the infantry had not crossed yet, much of the success being from the actions of just six platoons, mainly assault engineers.[44]

The disorder that had begun at Sedan was spread down the French lines by groups of haggard and retreating soldiers. During the night, the 295th, regiment of 55th DI, holding the last prepared defence line at the Bulson ridge, 10 kilometres from the Meuse, was panicked by the false rumour that German tanks were already behind its positions. It fled, creating a gap in the French defences, before even a single German tank had crossed the river. This "Panic of Bulson" involved the divisional artillery, so that the crossing sites were no longer in reach of the French batteries.

In the morning of 14 May, two French FCM 36 tank battalions (4 and 7 BCC) and the reserve regiment of 55th DI, 213rd RI, executed a counterattack on the German bridgehead. It was repulsed at Bulson by the first German armour and anti-tank units which had been rushed across the river from 07:20 on the first pontoon bridge."


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 Post subject: BKC 1940 France
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 7:07 pm 
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(Cuban Commissar @ May 14 2008,13:47)
QUOTE

(Dwarf Supreme @ May 14 2008,10:04)
QUOTE

(Legion 4 @ May 14 2008,11:27)
QUOTE
But I remember, the French tank Forces used R35s, H39s, S35s, Char B1s, AMCs, D2s, FT-17s(1st used in WWI !), Panhard Armored Cars, and I'm sure I forgot some.

I think you've listed all of the most widely used French tanks. A lot of people forget that French armor was for the most part superior to German armor of the same period.

Very true but training and doctrine killed them.

One of the biggest design flaws of the French was a lack of a deticated Tank commander.  Similar to tearly Soviets takes.

Agreed.

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 Post subject: BKC 1940 France
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 7:14 pm 
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These French AFVs, I listed were many that I remember building models of and/or playing Wargames. Like AH's France'40 supplement to PanzerBlitz/Panzer Leader and SPI's KampfPanzer. The Campaign notes from the AH FRANCE '40 game, the PanzerBlitz France '40 supplement and SPI's KampfPanzer  has some excellent charts, narratives and lists about AFVs used on both sides.  And also this is very true, D/S. One for one, the French AFVs, some listed above, and UK AFVs (A9, A10, A12, A13s), were generally "superior" to the bulk of the German armor, ie. Panzer Mk.Is & IIs.  Panzer Mk.IIIs and even fewer Mk.IVs were far less numerous than the Mk.Is and IIs. Three Panzer Divs of the ten, including Rommel's 7th, the bulk of their heavier AFVs were "annexed" Czech 35Ts and 38Ts. Which were more on par with the Allied AFVs of 1940. But the Germans(Guderian, Rommel, etc.) understood modern combined arms warfare with their Blitzkrieg tactics. While for the most part the UK was ready to refight the Boar Wars and, as were the French, WWI. These early battles of 1940 started to re-write the Field Manuals.

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 Post subject: BKC 1940 France
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 7:42 pm 
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And C/C is correct, while the German AFVs all had radios, with most of the French AFVs, only the Company Cdr had a radio. They were depending on flags and hand and arm signals. Not to mention the raw numbers of French AFVs out numbered the German. Even before the UK AFVs were add. The Brits took the fact that Tanks replaced the Horse Cav to heart. And with their light Mk.VI tanks, Cruiser(A9s, A10s and A13s) tanks were used in Cavalry charges, reminiscent of the Crimea. It worked at ?Abberville. And their heavier, A11s and A12s routed the SS at Arras, and had to be stopped by German 88s. But a year later in the Deserts of North Africa, the British AFVs were roughly handled using those tactics again against the DAK's 88s.

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 Post subject: BKC 1940 France
PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 1:12 am 
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Love those Czech tanks.

Its in some ways tricky to game. Play it the historical way and the French players cry at their orbats and tactical doctorins. Reorganise with the benifit of hindsight and face the problems of the Allied gear and numbers being superior 1 to 1 to the Axis. Who wouldn't put all those Chars into a reserve formation rather than scattered as infantry support for instance?

Though I'm spoilt, I got to do a week long residential refight with 50 other fanatics some years ago in 6mm.

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 Post subject: BKC 1940 France
PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 2:57 am 
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Yes, played the France '40 battles with AH's Blitzkrieg Supplement and SPI's KampfPanzer on a tactical scale. ?As well as the entire campaign on Strategic level with AH's France '40. If you go "strictly" historical, on any scale the Allies have their hands full. But use alternate scenarios, improved C?, scrap the Dyle plan, etc. ?... The Panzer Divs and the mostly foot mobile Infantry Corps(everyone's!), Mk.Is and IIs, etc. are going to be "challenged". ?And virtual destruction of French, Belgium and Dutch forces plus the remaining BEF evac at Dunkirk can be avoided ... :D  And to echo C/C's comment, the French FT-17 had a 1 man turret, and many others only 2. To be effective, you can't load, sight, fire and command at the same time ...




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 Post subject: BKC 1940 France
PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 6:02 am 
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My own sense is that the problems with French gear tend to be exaggerated -- we are tempted to explain a strategic defeat on the basis of tactical flaws.  

Had the French not put their head (all their Motorized/Mech formations) into the noose, we'd all be talking about superior French engineering and the logistical problems caused by Czech tanks.

Ernest May pointed out in Strange Victory that the one head-to-head engagement between a French and a German division was pretty much a draw, perhaps with advantage France.  The problem was that the French never got the chance to stage a second such engagement.


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 Post subject: BKC 1940 France
PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 9:03 am 
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(The_Real_Chris @ May 15 2008,01:12)
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Who wouldn't put all those Chars into a reserve formation rather than scattered as infantry support for instance?

Hey! This is exatcly information I am after! So did French use their Chars with infantry, rather than on their own? Did French have any Tank Formations, how did they used them?

I aim at historical accuracy, when possible.

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 Post subject: BKC 1940 France
PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 9:14 am 
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Will this site help at all?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=92493

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 Post subject: BKC 1940 France
PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 9:23 am 
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Ah, wont open at my work computer. :(

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