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'300' from Osprey...
Markconz
 Post subject: '300' from Osprey...
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 11:16 am 
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http://www.ospreypublishing.com/osp_img ... rticle.pdf

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: '300' from Osprey...
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 12:05 pm 
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*shrug*

I'm not really sure that such an article actually needed writing... surely anyone over the age of five can see the movie for what it is, popcorn fluff in the form of allegory.

I also remember a line from the comic book that went something like 'we don't care about democracy, we're only fighting for our freedom, leave democracy to the boy-molesters of athens', that I'm fairly sure made it into the movie...

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Markconz
 Post subject: '300' from Osprey...
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 12:47 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Apr. 29 2007,11:05)
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... surely anyone over the age of five can see the movie for what it is, popcorn fluff in the form of allegory.

You have a very optimistic view of the general human condition on this planet I think...  :glare:

Don't forget how many people died over a few cartoons not so long ago.... People are still slaughtering each other over bronze age myths involving talking snakes, evil apples, imaginary angels and similar delusional nonsense.  :(  Allegory - what's allegory?

Now to shut up before I have to censor myself...  :D

But besides preaching to the converted (who are the only people likely to read it anyway I'd imagine), the history, uniforms etc may be of interest to some wargamers.

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J0k3r
 Post subject: '300' from Osprey...
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 12:21 am 
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Good find, ill read that during coffee tommorrow.  Looks very interesting.

BTW- Have you read Tom Holland's "Persian Fire"?  Great book- very readable but also well supported and argued.  Only problem was myself and a mate read it in anticipation of the movie- NEVER read the book first is all im going to say on that one......

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Mojarn Piett
 Post subject: '300' from Osprey...
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 10:09 am 
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(Markconz @ Apr. 29 2007,14:47)
QUOTE

(Evil and Chaos @ Apr. 29 2007,11:05)
QUOTE
... surely anyone over the age of five can see the movie for what it is, popcorn fluff in the form of allegory.

You have a very optimistic view of the general human condition on this planet I think...  :glare:

Don't forget how many people died over a few cartoons not so long ago.... People are still slaughtering each other over bronze age myths involving talking snakes, evil apples, imaginary angels and similar delusional nonsense.  :(

Yeah, after all it's better to be a rational person and slaughter others over money, power, natural resources, ethnicity and other such things.  :glare:

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Markconz
 Post subject: '300' from Osprey...
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 1:10 pm 
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(Mojarn Piett @ May 09 2007,09:09)
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Yeah, after all it's better to be a rational person

Yes it is.  :)

and slaughter others over money, power, natural resources, ethnicity and other such things.  :glare:


But no to this stuff. I recommend considering the problems involved in these approaches using a suitable methodology. 'Science v107.0' is good but look for upgrade options arriving each week. 'Bronze Age Myths v1-3' have proven extremely defective in the hands of current operators and are not recommended.

If you require further assistance please ask.   :;):

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nealhunt
 Post subject: '300' from Osprey...
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 2:48 pm 
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I don't really see the point of the article, either.

Everyone involved (esp Miller) has been quite clear that they intended to create a work of art, not historical commentary.  It's a heroic story, therefore there will be an opponent who is in some way the Other.  The audience is intended to identify with the hero and the bad guy is demonized.

Duh.

Debate it as a work of art if you want.  Hell, do marxist criticism of it. Discuss how it reinforces or undermines prevailing social power if you want.  That might at least make sense.  It might be relevant to issues that are playing out in society or maybe to some small degree help us refine our definition of what it is to be human.

Running around yelling "Bias!  Racist!" accomplishes nothing, especially since the case is so ridiculously slim.  Anti-Iranian bias?  Please.

Virtually no one in the US would equate the ancient Persian empire with modern Iran.  I'd warrant most of the US public is utterly clueless that there is any connection whatsoever beyond a vague "I think Persia was in the Middle East somewhere" notion and some of them not even that much.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: '300' from Osprey...
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 2:54 pm 
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Whoa-ho!  That was just a blast of the curmudgeonly, wasn't it?   :p

I just finished my last crunch of exams and final papers yesterday.  Apparently, I haven't decompressed yet...

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nealhunt
 Post subject: '300' from Osprey...
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 4:10 pm 
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(Markconz @ May 09 2007,13:10)
QUOTE
I recommend considering the problems involved in these approaches using a suitable methodology. 'Science v107.0' is good but look for upgrade options arriving each week. 'Bronze Age Myths v1-3' have proven extremely defective in the hands of current operators and are not recommended.

Just to play devil's advocate...  :devil:

I've been delving increasingly into the field of technology studies as part of my thesis work.  I think I would make the case that scientific rationality is, in fact, an exceptionally bad way to deal with issues in the political arena.  Value-neutral rationality led to things like Machiavelli's The Prince, Sun Tzu's assertion that warfare is simply a tool for the enrichment of the state, and determination that a eugenics program is a perfectly reasonable course of action.

Science is not, never has been, and (imho) hopefully never will be devoid of broad philosophical considerations, including irrational ideas like human life has an inherent value in and of itself.

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Markconz
 Post subject: '300' from Osprey...
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 1:20 am 
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(nealhunt @ May 09 2007,15:10)
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Just to play devil's advocate...  :devil:

That's why I recommended getting the latest versions rather than earlier approximations.  :;): Because this is most certainly the realm of science, and urgently so.

If you want to investigate morality (or anything else), science places the most powerful tools in your hands to do so. If you want to try and decide what is right or wrong, science places the most powerful tools in your hands to examine an issue from various perspectives, including the vastly important - why your mind and others minds will likely come to the conclusions that they will. The 'blank slate' view of the mind  is a fallacy as I'm sure you know.

Empirical investigation shows that universal human moral structures (like 'you don't just go around killing people') have deep innate roots based on kinship selection and other evolutionary factors. These interact with other innate moral imperatives for self-preservation of self and kin, (and sometimes compete with them).  

Of course it is our perception of threat states not necessarily the reality of these states that governs our behaviour... and in todays complex world it can be tough to tell the difference. Exceptionally so if perception of reality is distorted by delusional myths.

Morality and reality are rarely simple, and while acknowledging limitations are important, at least use the best current empirically based approximations and understandings of 'the human condition' and work from there.  If you don't think so, then what methodological tool-set do you propose instead...?

EP and morality:
http://www.amazon.com/Moral-M....0780703
http://www.amazon.com/Moral-A....9763996

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Markconz
 Post subject: '300' from Osprey...
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 1:24 am 
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Can I also point emphasise that I just posted this because it had useful info for wargamers in the way of uniforms etc, not for any other reason!! :D

Congrats on getting through the academic work by the way Neal! :)

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: '300' from Osprey...
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 4:07 am 
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I should note the death of the 'philosofifer scientist' and that yes life does have certain protections built in - however nothing in my life has convinced me we aren't capable of overcoming those inhibitions relatively easily.

Any scientific set of tools should quite rightly show the constant exploitation of the majority of the world by the powerful minority (us lot) has been very much in our favour for a long time. Negative consequences for us simply haven't arisen, our policies have been very successful and either through inaction or action the deaths of millions at our hands have not negatively affected our living standards - indeed quite the opposite.

I have spent the last few weeks managing a refugee program in bangladesh (wierd life I lead init?) and I can say the bangladesh governments actions these past 15 years have been quite sensible - corrupt officials have exploited according to UNHCR $300,000 a year from these remaining 20 odd thousand people, the UN has employed 200+ Bangladeshi civil servants to manage this exploitation and even additional policing costs are very little and covered by the international community so any frustration is cheap to quell. No set of analysis devoid of morality tells me they did the wrong thing. From every angle they were correct, they made money, got free infrastructure, got a refugee community to use as they see fit and the consequence? Nowt. And if they had dealt with it a decade ago? They would have got nothing extra.

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Markconz
 Post subject: '300' from Osprey...
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 5:38 am 
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Good example Chris. So do you regard the case example you give as wrong or not, or are you indifferent to the whole thing? Why? That's the interesting question, and half the answer too.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: '300' from Osprey...
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 7:06 am 
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Well my job depends on such suffering - on the world became a nicer place I would have to hope the social security system was good to - or I could go back to the building trade :)

Me, I don't care really, its just another program in a long line - I know exactly the most effective actions to take to advocate for them. Ultimate resolution is political so I cheerfully bypass the buerocracy that says I'm not supposed to do anything and leave it to HQ and instead try and get foriegn ambassedors to put pressure on. I know the actions that are supposed to be taken to improve their lot , just as my partners in government know how to delay them (according to my predecessor it took 6 months to get permission to improve the latrines).

My compatriots in UNHCR who have the lead have also more than 80% overheads on the support they provide, which is dire.

National staff on all sides have varying levels of compassion and competence - all hold the refugees in some level of contempt for a variety of reasons. I have an amasing ability it seems to sit in front of someone and get them to bitch - the head Bangladeshi in charge of the welfare of 15,000 of them gave me two days ago a 15 minute speech on how they were criminals, scroungers, corrupt and marrying Bangladeshi women mixed with how magnanimous the Bangladeshi's were (generally they don't steal the refugees rations, just force them to sell it at 1/3 market value then sell it back at full price).

So is it wrong?
Yes, I am informed by the example of my parents who were moral Catholics dedicated to serving others. Since they were also quite pragmatic and i require some ethical structure to remain in the society I inhabit, plus my wife would box me if i got to cynical and started being mercenry, theirs is better than nowt, so I go with that.

Do I care?
No, I know what to do, do it, know my chances of success and can give you the likely scenarios 5 years from now, can tell you exactly the strategies required (fall into two camps - variety of 'get better' and 'get worse', the former leads to better conditions the latter to the closure/disbanding of the camps and they get to take their chances outside) etc. Sometimes I get moved, other times I'm too busy trying to figure out what angle the person in front of me is trying to push and most of the time its run of the mill human suffering which is hardly novel.

Great eh? A sorry state of affairs to be in, but at least i am still worth my salary unlike many others in the same field. Would i have been one of the great philantrophists of times past who decided against the grain of society to improve the lot of their fellow man? No idea, I can see how I could have gone both ways.

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vanvlak
 Post subject: '300' from Osprey...
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 7:35 am 
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the head Bangladeshi in charge of the welfare of 15,000 of them gave me two days ago a 15 minute speech on how they were criminals, scroungers, corrupt and marrying Bangladeshi women mixed with how magnanimous the Bangladeshi's were

Good grief, sounds like the drivel a number of my compatriots spout about the Africans who travel to Europe and quite often get stranded here.
No idea, I can see how I could have gone both ways.
That's one impressive statement. I think I'd like you if we were to meet, The Real Chris.

Neal, congrats too - must be a relief to be done. I'm looking forward to that by December - or maybe even earlier.

Can I also point emphasise that I just posted this because it had useful info for wargamers in the way of uniforms etc, not for any other reason!! :D
And that was interesting too - I downloaded a copy as I should probably start painting Persians soon. Now try to repeat  'painting Persians' fast as many times as possible... don't stand too close to the monitor or you'll need something to wipe it. Ick.

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