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| Confrontation http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=9318 |
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| Author: | CyberShadow [ Fri Apr 27, 2007 7:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Confrontation |
Hi all. Those with a good memory will recall that I was looking for a good fantasy warband set of rules. At the time, only the core Confrontation rule book was around. Salute saw me wandering around, looking for more ways to 'invest'. Hybrid came close, but I ended up walking away with Confrontation third edition, with Dogs of War (the expansion book) for free. Score! Fast forward a week or two, and I have been researching the game to get some more background about the system and company. And, I thought that I would share, in case anyone is thinking of following the same path. After visiting Warseer and the Rackham forums, there are a number of rumours about the game. Firstly, it appears that the system is very unbalanced. The standard game system has large, exploitable holes in it, and later characters are not balanced with others (mainly because Rackham decided that when they changed the rules from second edition to third, they would not touch the model stats!). This annoyed me to start with, but the Dogs of War warbands exclude the more unstable and expensive characters, so I guess that I can live with it. It seems that Confrontation fourth edition is due to hit us around September this year. It will combine the core Confrontation rules, but take them in a new direction, including the Ragnarok rules as well. This will allow games of between 10 and over 100 miniatures, but the rules will be streamlined. It seems that Rackham are looking for a slice if the Warhammer/Armies of Arcana market. In addition, it appears that the core troop types for the game will become plastic and pre-painted, while the elite and character troops will remain as they currently are, metal and naked! This is not good news for me. I cant stand pre-painted stuff, I just dont see the point and I would rather use unpainted minis. To begin with, this news irritated me. No-one outside the hobby knows the frustration of picking up a set of rules to hear that it will be replaced soon! However, since I really dont like the sound of fourth edition, and I am looking for a warband set, I have since decided that I was right to get third edition now, and stick with it. My only worry now is that the miniatures/cards will change and not allow me to use future Confrontation minis. Does anyone else have Confrontation, or have anything comments on the system? |
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| Author: | Chroma [ Mon Apr 30, 2007 1:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Confrontation |
I've never played Confrontation or even read the rules, I just collect various Wolfen models because I think they look super-cool... well, for the most part, some of the poses are... odd. Thanks for the info though! |
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| Author: | vanvlak [ Mon Apr 30, 2007 6:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Confrontation |
Ditto Chroma, except that I have a very small mess of miniatures from different ranges, Wulfen included. |
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| Author: | wargame_insomniac [ Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Confrontation |
Hi Has anybody played much with Confrontation v3/v4? I tried playing with V2 but struggled to get the hang of the game. Bought V3 but have not yet played it since moving fron London. Should I bother with V3 or just move straight onto V4? Or just ignore Rackham for rules and use their Griffins/Wolfen figures with other rules. Cheers James |
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| Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Confrontation |
Didn't Rackham go broke? |
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| Author: | primarch [ Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Confrontation |
Hi! Oddly I am HEAVILY invested in AT-43. I love the system and really like the pre-painted minis. I would have never played confrontation, but the new box set is based on the same AT rules and system and I already pre-ordered two boxes. I have seen the discontent regarding this change. I think Rackham handled this poorly. But if they even get half the success with the new confrontation as with AT-43, Rackham will do very well. Primarch |
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| Author: | CyberShadow [ Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Confrontation |
Confrontation - I dont have version 2, but I have heard that v3 is very much a step in the right direction, with the rules all kept together and clarified a lot better. The system seems interesting, and the mechanics are a nice mix of detail and playability. I dont particularly like the idea of cards, but that is a personal thing. The question of v3 or v4 really depends on what you are looking for. They are totally different games. V3 is a skirmish warband game. V4 is a mass combat game, which is a mix of Confrontation V3 and Rangarok into a single system. Rackham - They have not gone broke... yet. They have had their share prices frozen. However, there have been many worrying stories about then not paying sculptors, artists, etc. Essentially, I think that they have been hit hard by some stunningly bad decisions. Moving away from exceptional miniatures (the thing that made the company stand out) to a generic mass battle game with definately average prepaints is just dumb. They are still trading, but look how many miniatures are offered at a discount on their own store. |
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| Author: | wargame_insomniac [ Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Confrontation |
(Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 21 2007,20:15) QUOTE Didn't Rackham go broke? Really? That would be gutting. The quality of the minatures they produced was second to none. Some of them were a bit wierd and not to my personal taste (I am thinking of their Cynwall elves & Mid-Nor dwarves). But at least they were prepared to try something different from usual fantasy cliches. It is probably no coincidence that my 2 favourite of their armies were the Griffins and Wolfen. I think these were the longest running armies and therefore the most established and fleshed out, both in terms of model range and also background details. These 2 races probably cam closest to being Rackham's signature. I am thinking of Mira the reckless and pretty much any Wolfen figure. I mean werewolves with huge great axes- what is not to love!! And the paintjobs..... Wow- I am not a fan of NMM for gaming- I have decided after a few early disasterous attempts at NMM that it does n;t suit my paint style or for army painting. NMM's place is for mega detailed display pieces. I hope Rackham keeps on going, if only to keep GW and Privateer Press honest in the quality of their figures. With competition like this it raises tha bar and leads to amazing quality figures for us the consumer. Cheers James |
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| Author: | wargame_insomniac [ Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Confrontation |
(primarch @ Oct. 21 2007,20:46) QUOTE Hi! Oddly I am HEAVILY invested in AT-43. I love the system and really like the pre-painted minis. I would have never played confrontation, but the new box set is based on the same AT rules and system and I already pre-ordered two boxes. I have seen the discontent regarding this change. I think Rackham handled this poorly. But if they even get half the success with the new confrontation as with AT-43, Rackham will do very well. Primarch I had n't realised that the AT43 figures were pre-painted. The paint jobs on their website are pretty good. What about the actual figure released? If paintjobs are as good as on website then it is worth buying the UNA figures for use as generic near future soldiers. Just taking the Steel Troopers, Steel Tacarms, Fire Toads, Star Troopers & Wing Troopers it looks as if you have a reasonable choice of units. I guess some gamers prefer fantasy and some prefer sci-fi. As Primarch says if AT-43 takes off it will be a sucess and probably make Rackham more resilient and able to cope with any fall in demand for sales of Confrontation. If any gaming company has all eggs in one basket then sooner or later sales for that game will dip. Privateer Press is in same boat with Warmachine/Hordes. Primarch- What AT-43 figures have you bought so far and what did you think of paint job and casting quality? Cheers James |
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| Author: | wargame_insomniac [ Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Confrontation |
(CyberShadow @ Oct. 21 2007,22:19) QUOTE Confrontation - I dont have version 2, but I have heard that v3 is very much a step in the right direction, with the rules all kept together and clarified a lot better. The system seems interesting, and the mechanics are a nice mix of detail and playability. I dont particularly like the idea of cards, but that is a personal thing. The question of v3 or v4 really depends on what you are looking for. They are totally different games. V3 is a skirmish warband game. V4 is a mass combat game, which is a mix of Confrontation V3 and Rangarok into a single system. Rackham - They have not gone broke... yet. They have had their share prices frozen. However, there have been many worrying stories about then not paying sculptors, artists, etc. Essentially, I think that they have been hit hard by some stunningly bad decisions. Moving away from exceptional miniatures (the thing that made the company stand out) to a generic mass battle game with definately average prepaints is just dumb. They are still trading, but look how many miniatures are offered at a discount on their own store. Thanks C/S. That explains why they put out V4 so quickly then. I would have preferred that they would have kept the Ragnarok label for mass battle game and Confrontation label for skirmish game- avoid confusion. But maybe the Ragnarok brand had n't caught on and they needed to maximise use of their main longer-established brand. As releasing Confrontation basic units as pre-painted I have mixed feelings. First depends on quality of paint jobs. Secondly depends on whether can still buy old unpainted pewter. I suspect that this is a reaction to the popularity of the pre-painted CMG games. I have previously player Mechwarrior, Mageknight, Star Wars Minis, D&D Minis and A&A Minis. The big attraction is being able to literally pick up and play. This was especially attractive to newer younger gamers. Personally I have found that as I have been promoted at work my salary has gone up in inverse proprtion to my free lesiure time. Whereas at university I had little money and loads of free time I now have the opposite. In that free time I have to get in any web time, watching TV/DVD's, reading, painting and gaming. Although I enjoy figure painting I am more of a gamer than a painter and if I have time to do only one then I would prefer to game with pre-painted figures. If pre-painted plastic figures brings gaming to a wider audience and makes it easier to sell in more mass market shops then that is a good thing for the gaming community in long term. If it does not attract new players but leads to a drop in painting of exisiting gamers then it is a bad thing. I am cautiously optimistic. Cheers James |
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| Author: | vanvlak [ Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Confrontation |
Hope Rackham makes it. Their metals are stunning; I have not seen plastics close up, but the designs are nice, at least. As for the prepaint job quality - it's been reported (somewhere at Taccomms, possibly?) that the paintwork on the stock models is inferior to that shown on the website, but not noticeably so. Which means it's better than what I manage. Still wouldn't buy prepaints unless I were repainting them, though - I guess modelling will always come first - mainly because my free time comes in short bursts which do not provide enough time for a decent game! |
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| Author: | primarch [ Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Confrontation |
(wargame_insomniac @ Oct. 21 2007,17:50) QUOTE (primarch @ Oct. 21 2007,20:46) QUOTE Hi! Oddly I am HEAVILY invested in AT-43. I love the system and really like the pre-painted minis. I would have never played confrontation, but the new box set is based on the same AT rules and system and I already pre-ordered two boxes. I have seen the discontent regarding this change. I think Rackham handled this poorly. But if they even get half the success with the new confrontation as with AT-43, Rackham will do very well. Primarch I had n't realised that the AT43 figures were pre-painted. The paint jobs on their website are pretty good. What about the actual figure released? If paintjobs are as good as on website then it is worth buying the UNA figures for use as generic near future soldiers. Just taking the Steel Troopers, Steel Tacarms, Fire Toads, Star Troopers & Wing Troopers it looks as if you have a reasonable choice of units. I guess some gamers prefer fantasy and some prefer sci-fi. As Primarch says if AT-43 takes off it will be a sucess and probably make Rackham more resilient and able to cope with any fall in demand for sales of Confrontation. If any gaming company has all eggs in one basket then sooner or later sales for that game will dip. Privateer Press is in same boat with Warmachine/Hordes. Primarch- What AT-43 figures have you bought so far and what did you think of paint job and casting quality? Cheers James Hi! The paint quality is VERY good. I believe they are the best pre-paints on the market... period. THe strider (mechs) even got stickers and such that make them look good. THe coolest part is that the parts are MOVABLE and REMOVABLE, so as to change weapons configurations. You can even swap the heads on the infantry!! As always, if you're a painter, no doubt you'll find that you could do better, but these things out of the box are heads and shoulder better than what most people do for their minis (me included) and the ability to play right out of the box is HUGE. These are not crappy clicky minis paint job. They are not museum quality or will win you a competition, but you wont feel embarrassed to field them either. Like I said compared to what I have seen the average gamer do, these things are quite good. The answer to "what I have bought" is answered in the usual "primarchesque" way... ...EVERYTHING!! I have several thousands of points of each of UNA, Red Blok and Therians. Luckily I did most of my shopping before my move, since the economic crunch of it would have permitted me from getting into the game. It was kind of funny opening moving boxes with brand new AT inside I bought in PR. They sure have had a lot of use as a growing AT group is surging here. I wouldnt worry about Rackham and thier financial state. While thier move with Confrontation brought much anger, AT is making a killing in the US and if Confrontation can match it (which I think it will), they will easily make up for the investment. I think they are wise going with QUALITY pre-paints. I can not stress enough how easy it is to attract gamers for it when you tell them all they need to do is buy and open the box and.... PLAY! Lots of people love painting, but I believe even MORE like playing. I think this company is taping into a great source of revenue with these games. Primarch |
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| Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Confrontation |
I heard Rackham had to sell their metals foundry (So they're outsoucing metals production now), fired all their sculptors and all their artists. The only people left working directly for the company now are their sales team and their pre-paints team. They definitely only have 4 months left of bankruptsy protection before the law says they have to pay their creditors. They're so short for cash that they're selling their studio models (The ones from their books) as limited editions, IIRC. All in all, if even half of the rumours are true, the future does not look bright for Rackham. |
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| Author: | CyberShadow [ Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Confrontation |
They're so short for cash that they're selling their studio models (The ones from their books) as limited editions, IIRC. They have actually been doing this for a few months now, not as a direct reaction to current problems (although they may have seen this coming). While thier move with Confrontation brought much anger, AT is making a killing in the US and if Confrontation can match it (which I think it will), they will easily make up for the investment. I disagree about the viability of Confrontation as a pre-paint game. Something that was mentioned on Warseer, and I agree, is that fantasy games are inherantly about heroes and personalities. Pre-paints just dont appeal to the same market. I suspect the Confrontation pre-paint wont do well. AT43 seems to be doing very well in the US, but badly in Europe. I think that it will be 50/50 on Rackhams future, but I wouldnt put bets on it. |
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| Author: | firestorm40k [ Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Confrontation |
Well, I think I'll at least buy the initiation set for Confrontation, as I did with AT-43. The fact that it's pre-painted is a factor (glances at unending stas of minis to paint), and that it's got Wulfen in it too - I like the idea of an army of werewolves!  If Confrontation takes off in the global market the way AT-43 did (though I'm aware sales weren't as great in Europe as expected), I think Rackham will pull through. |
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