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Opinions on Warmachine from epic players?
CyberShadow
 Post subject: Opinions on Warmachine from epic players?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:02 pm 
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I dont think that I will get into WM right now - not because of any particular reason beyond the fact that I already have loads of games. I might get some miniatures, though... and maybe stat them up for my home rules game. Just because I like the minis.

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Admiral d'Artagnan
 Post subject: Opinions on Warmachine from epic players?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:21 pm 
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(pixelgeek @ Apr. 03 2008,17:07)
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(Admiral d'Artagnan @ Apr. 03 2008,02:02)
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WM or Hordes is not just about who can get his feat off early.

If you'll look at my comment it was specifically about Starter Set battles and I can assure you that it is the case in those types of games.

Its the prime reason why I didn't touch the game until the first expansion came out.

Larger games with different unit type and using the Steamroller scenarios is definitely a much different game.

Again, even with starter boxes, it doesn' necessarily mean who gets the feat off first wins.  Even with Kreoss or Sorscha, you need to be careful with them because even if they pop their feat, if their opponent is canny enough to create a situation where they can weather the feat, Kreoss and Sorscha can be dealt with easily next turn or round. What I am sayin is, it's not as simple as poppoing feat and auto winning.
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Admiral d'Artagnan
 Post subject: Opinions on Warmachine from epic players?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:28 pm 
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(Lord Inquisitor @ Apr. 03 2008,19:53)
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My main issue with it was that while it was an enormously tactical game, it was game-tactics rather than troop-tactics. Rather chess-like thinking ahead - which is pretty cool. But they all revolve around points and feats and the warcaster. Not so much outmaneuvering the enemy but keeping all my special rules in order.

I'm thinking about a gothic fleet, which is a very bad idea.

Well, yes as with most games, it's generally a games tactic thing. But even with WM, there is still troop tactics as individual troopers can choose their own targets. Casters are nice and all especially if the synergy with their models is smooth but in 500 points up games, maneuvering is still key, especially in objective based games instead of the usual Assassination.

Gothic...well yes, that is a bad idea for your wallets.  :laugh:
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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Opinions on Warmachine from epic players?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:18 am 
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(Admiral d'Artagnan @ Apr. 03 2008,14:21)
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Again, even with starter boxes, it doesn' necessarily mean who gets the feat off first wins.

YMMV.

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Mark_Logue
 Post subject: Opinions on Warmachine from epic players?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:56 am 
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I gave it a try because I like the miniatures but I can't stand the game.  It's definitely possible to win the game in list generation and I don't like the combat system.  I actually have stopped going to the local games club because some of the guys started a campaign.

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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Opinions on Warmachine from epic players?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 7:49 pm 
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Huh?  I've never seen somebody successfully build an unbeatable army.  The one time a guy tried, another player took a relatively easy to beat force and wiped the floor with the "unbeatable-combo"

There are nasty combinations everywhere, but the game is very much built around average 2d6 rolls allowing success for your actions.  

Also, some of the factions have many fewer special rules to keep track of (or no synergistic effects), which makes them much easier to play.  The three most challenging armies in the game are actually Menoth, Trolls, and the Pirates, because of all the synergistic effects that you have to keep track of.  Khador or Legion are much easier for beginners to play, due to the (not lack of synergy, but the dramatically smaller list of synergistic effects).

Also, revision to the Cygnar Mangled metal list from earlier:  Darius or regular Nemo, 2 hunters and 2 Centurions, just under 500 points.  Hunters have an armor-piercing rifle (target's armor value is halved when figuring damage, so even a closed-up Khadoran Devastator's Armor 25 can be hurt with a boosted Damage roll.  6+3d6 minus target's armor of (25 halved) 12 = nickel and dime damage that adds up) and can hit&run (advance, shoot, and then run away due to the steam reservoir).  Caster "hides" behind/between the centurions, which can't be charged from the front.

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Admiral d'Artagnan
 Post subject: Opinions on Warmachine from epic players?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:51 pm 
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Yes, there is no unbeatable army in WM.  Even with Kreoss or Sorscha, the 2 closest casters which you can describe as an autobutton, they can be beaten.

My MM list at 500 would be fairly simple:

Vlad
Behemoth
2x Destroyers

500 points on the dot.

I could also go with Karchev.

Karchev
Behemoth
2xBerzerkers

440 points but they're worth it under K

or

Karchev
2 x Berzerkers
Kodiak
Marauder

494 points and lots of ways to knockdown an opponent for the Kodiak to take advantage of its abilities.
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Admiral d'Artagnan
 Post subject: Opinions on Warmachine from epic players?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:37 am 
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I just bought 2 Mortars over the weekend. I can now officially say I am Khadoran. Heheh!
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wargame_insomniac
 Post subject: Opinions on Warmachine from epic players?
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 10:28 pm 
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(pixelgeek @ Apr. 03 2008,17:07)
QUOTE

(Admiral d'Artagnan @ Apr. 03 2008,02:02)
QUOTE
WM or Hordes is not just about who can get his feat off early.

If you'll look at my comment it was specifically about Starter Set battles and I can assure you that it is the case in those types of games.

Its the prime reason why I didn't touch the game until the first expansion came out.

Larger games with different unit type and using the Steamroller scenarios is definitely a much different game.

Not always.

I played a game of Cygnar Battlebox vs Khador Battlebox. Sorscha popped her feat immobilising the whole of my force (stupid placement on my part). I had to endure the whole turn of being beat up by Khador and not being able to do a thing. My Ironclas was trashed and the Lancer and Charger both damaged.

To make it even worse the next two turns Sorscha managed to freeze Stryker in close combat taking him to within 4 points of death. The only thing that saved me was good armour and camping on my focus.

Then in my turn I was able to tie up his 2 big jacks with my Ironclad and Charger. Both of my jacks were a couple of points away from salvage and could barely scratch the Khador jacks paintwork. But crucially they meant that could nt get a charge on Stryker. That allowed me to use all my focus on Stryker to get extra attacks. Sorscha was at DEF 19 so pretty hard to hit. But I rolled enough dice and the final one connected. Boosting to damage I was able to kill her in single strike.

So even though Sortscha got her feat off first and THEN froze me for both of the next 2 turns, I was able to hang in there and then land the final blow.

So I have found the battlebox games to be entertaining and tactically challenging. I know I have nt got my army down pat yet as I still forget to do my army combos in the right order. e.g. I did not properly time my Charger's shooting and Ironclad's charge with Stryker's Earthquake spell.    

Cheers

James

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wargame_insomniac
 Post subject: Opinions on Warmachine from epic players?
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 11:14 pm 
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(Admiral d'Artagnan @ Apr. 04 2008,22:51)
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Yes, there is no unbeatable army in WM. ?Even with Kreoss or Sorscha, the 2 closest casters which you can describe as an autobutton, they can be beaten.

I would second that. Playing with Cygnar I have now finally tasted victory against Sorscha. And in my 2 games against Kreoss although I lost they got closer each time. The first time I got nailed by Kreoss's anti-magic. But second time around Stryker got taken out but it was by a Repenter firing a luck shot. He needed an eleven to hit on 2 dice (no focus to boost) and rolled double six to hit and then an eleven to damage.

I was gutted to lose such a tight game but just had to laugh at the way the dice came up in that final turn. It maay be tougher to win with certain casters and jacks but is still not impossible.

Another thing to look at is who wins PP's competitions  reported in their magazine No Quarter. The top players use a mix of factions and even 2 armies of the same faction are usually distinctive. There appears to be no one fixed way to win the game even at the highest most competitive levels.

Myself- I just enjoying playing friendly games which are always action packed with some incredibly cool beautiful minatures.

Cheers

James

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Mark_Logue
 Post subject: Opinions on Warmachine from epic players?
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 3:21 am 
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Huh?  I've never seen somebody successfully build an unbeatable army.  The one time a guy tried, another player took a relatively easy to beat force and wiped the floor with the "unbeatable-combo"

There are nasty combinations everywhere, but the game is very much built around average 2d6 rolls allowing success for your actions.  


I am not saying that people can build unbeatable armies but it is fairly easy to have two army lists where it is impossible for one to beat the other.  Some things just suck and other things are heaps better for the points.  I think it really comes down to the fact that I hate spending hours over a book working out some powerful combos to make a list.  I prefer to spend time painting and gaming and working on developing a list over time through games.  Try that with War Machine and you can end up with an entire army's worth of models that you can pretty much just throw out.  They are no good to you and no good to anyone, they suck and are overcosted.

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Admiral d'Artagnan
 Post subject: Opinions on Warmachine from epic players?
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 6:18 am 
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(Mark_Logue @ May 25 2008,03:21)
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Try that with War Machine and you can end up with an entire army's worth of models that you can pretty much just throw out.  They are no good to you and no good to anyone, they suck and are overcosted.

I haven't seen much useless models/units in Warmachine. Usually every model has something to contribute to the game unlike in the other miniatures I play where there ARE models/units which are useless to take.

I also don't think you can avoid overcosted units/models but there are broken units as well on the opposite end of the spectrum. Great models/units with monster stats.

As an example, lots of people don't take Shocktroopers because of its cost but they really excel at scenarios where they take and hold the ground where they stand.
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wargame_insomniac
 Post subject: Opinions on Warmachine from epic players?
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 4:14 pm 
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In every game system there are always going to be units that are weaker and also some that are stronger for most missions. e.g. in Epic A are you better taking SM Tactical Marines or a mix of SM Devastator/Assault Marines? generalists or specialists?

So for my Cygnar force two light jacks Charger & Sentinels are commonly accepted to be weaker choices and less likely to appear in a min-maxed competitive tournament army. I can see what the critics of these 2 units mean- they are the opposite of an "easy button".

But does nt mean they are completly useless. I would never have more than one of each but I would certainly field each of them in fun games down at my local gaming club.

Cheers

James

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Admiral d'Artagnan
 Post subject: Opinions on Warmachine from epic players?
PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 1:55 am 
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Agreed. Another example for Khador. The Marauder is a jack which is not always considered in Khador. I have one and I find it a fun jack to use. esp with Karchev, a caster which is not considered good for competitive play.
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