Having used a formation of tornados at FSA 09 and in a few dozen games before that, even if they were dropped to a free upgrade I would not use them again in a tournament.
The same could be said of Maraurders,even with 3bp and 250 points I wouldn't use them at a tournament.

The Dreadnaught I think is fine as it is.Having used them at 4 seperate tournaments in the past  they've always performed well and felt fine,to me any boost would make them a no brainer for my armies.

I have to partially disagree on the razorback and pred. though. On paper their stats are lacking a little ( maybe a lot) to their counter parts but through my gaming and tournament experiences they are becoming viable options, especially the AP razorback as they are.
This is mainly because of the variety of forces now seen in games
and tournaments. Again this is purely based on my experiences of meeting all infantry forces at 3 or 4 tournaments and my main use of preds. and AT razorbacks for trying to suppress Flak . Then playing BL or feral orks and finding my added AT is wasted.

That reminds me of the first time I played my IG  at a tournament
and my first games was against an all Infatry Feral army. My Shadowswords and Deathstrikes were reduced to trying to kill madboys and my Vultures reduced to initiating assaults all after reading various reports on how These IG formations couldn't fail to get their points back plus more.

Me and my big mouth.

Then you give them a pip of firefight or something, until you make a useful unit. Leaving them at +10pts is just silly.

I have to partially disagree on the razorback and pred. though. On paper their stats are lacking a little ( maybe a lot) to their counter parts but through my gaming and tournament experiences they are becoming viable options, especially the AP razorback as they are.
This is mainly because of the variety of forces now seen in games
and tournaments. Again this is purely based on my experiences of meeting all infantry forces at 3 or 4 tournaments and my main use of preds. and AT razorbacks for trying to suppress Flak . Then playing BL or feral orks and finding my added AT is wasted.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

There where Marine players in the designing right?

AT 4+ is just better than AP 4+. It's almost always more useful to kill a tank than an infantry stand, infantry usually carrying less guns, moving slower and having worse armour.
Heck, killing the transport hurts the infantry it would have carried, as they now must walk.
Tanks also are easier to hit generally, as infantry can hide amongst them.

I have enough Tactical Missile Launchers and Firefight to deal with infantry, I need Anti-tank anywhere I can get it.

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NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

We'll have to agree to disagree I'm afraid.

I don't see Bolter Razorbacks ever being taken over Lascannon.
For that matter I don't see Marines sitting on Overwatch on their Blitz doing much, I used too, and I was strongly advised and found that Marines have to be aggressive with every formation.

It was just a bit of bombshell to hear it, you might as well have said Thunderhawks are rubbish take more Predators, or something.
My experience just seems to run contrary to a lot of stuff said here, since we are the fledgeling, new gaming group, and people here are seasoned tournament goers, I can only take people's word for it that outside of our gaming bubble these bizarre things happen.

So unless you're going to play in UK Epic Tournies ... Nothing there for us on Tac Cmd ...  Since we write our own rules and even make our own models ...  

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To me, the Laserback gives Scouts on overwatch a 45cm "threat" range as opposed to only 30cm from a Bolterback (and their own weapons); I've had that give the enemy pause on more than one occasion.

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Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

The Marines armies at the Open War tournament didn't seem to have changed much from previously, no HB Razorbacks, no Predators, no Vindicators. I didn't see any Dreadnoughts. No Marauder Bombers. No Land Speeders except for Multi-Melta ones.

I wasn't looking actively though, it only occurs to me now, so I may be wrong.

The EpicUK 'Codex' introduced some new list structures to UK tournaments, but it didn't fix units, so although we'll see different list types, the previously sucky units will remain unseen because most of them are still sub-standard?


OTOH, maybe all the tourney types collected their armies based on what was useful in a highly competative environment previously, and don't own any of the units I listed.

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I think you'll find that LS Tornadoes were in the list that won FSA, preds+dreads won open war X - of the units you mention only marauders+AP preds haven't been present in the last 3 tourneys. Though I don't know who you approve of as a fluffy player to say if it was a 'competitive' player who fielded them.

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NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

Fair enough I can only speak from experience.

Someone really took Vindicators before the price change?

Though I don't know who you approve of as a fluffy player to say if it was a 'competitive' player who fielded them.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

I was referring to statements like this and the constant highly competitive comments - the tournaments are competitive but are played in a very good spirit and are entirely devoid of the win at all costs mentality which pervades other systems. This is how they are successful with minimal umpiring.

The majority of players in the higher places are there because they can field virtually any army with virtually any composition which gives them the experience and breadth of knowledge to compete against the varied lists which come up at tourneys.
Though this is the case I still think the scene is very welcome to new players - Kevin Bott only started about a year ago and is now usually in the top 8 whilst at OW a player come midtable who has only been playing a month.

I've never understood why you don't consider yourself a tournament player - do you not try and win?

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www.epic-uk.co.uk
NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

I wouldn't say entirely... I did come across a Warhound Titan with a Commissar riding inside it, cutting up tanks with his Macro Weapon... technically allowed by the letter of the rules but definitely against the spirit.

But yes, for the most part the Epic tournaments are much more mature than the tournaments I've been to for other GW games (Despite the similar age groups that attend each, GW's core games are simply more 'gamey' to play).

I've never understood why you don't consider yourself a tournament player - do you not try and win?

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

your also on page one "you are a power gamer!" i lol'd  

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"Dyslexia is a Privilege, not a right"