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NetEA website?

 Post subject: Re: NetEA website?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:31 am 
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Simulated Knave wrote:
CS, if TacComms is supposed to be about more than Epic, having an independent website helps demonstrate that that's the case.

Development would still happen in the community - the website would hold the 'permanent' documents. This'd actually be convenient, because it'd be a lot easier to tell what the current 'official' rules were. They'd be the ones on the website.

+1

But I do understand that it would take time and money to have an Independent site. However a seprate site and web address was always what I thought was planned or envisioned.

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 Post subject: Re: NetEA website?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:58 am 
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madd0ct0r wrote:
I'm happy to help on image creation, theming, SEO and copy generation. basically CS - if you say 'I need 500 words on orks and ork lists' i can do that no problem. If it's I need an Orky banner and paragrpah trimmer, again, no problem.

incidentally, taccoms is scorng much higher on google searches for epic armageddon now.


Many thanks. Given that my artist ability is limited to stick figures - and even these come out looking wrong - I will certainly be putting out a call for graphics. Also, the more people we can get involved in putting this together, the better.

As for search results, this is a combination of a few changes that I made to key words, etc, the fact that this version of the forums is scanned by search bots (which you can occasionally see visiting here), and the new site being far better set up for search engine discovery.

Angel_of_Caliban wrote:
Simulated Knave wrote:
CS, if TacComms is supposed to be about more than Epic, having an independent website helps demonstrate that that's the case.

Development would still happen in the community - the website would hold the 'permanent' documents. This'd actually be convenient, because it'd be a lot easier to tell what the current 'official' rules were. They'd be the ones on the website.

+1

But I do understand that it would take time and money to have an Independent site. However a seprate site and web address was always what I thought was planned or envisioned.


Not that I was aware of. ;) Epic is - and probably will always be - the game at the core of the site and the thing that drives the community. It's my 6mm game of choice. The idea of moving forwards was to add to the Epic core with other systems so that we can not only talk about other things, but bring in players who don't currently play Epic but do play other games and get different perspectives, etc.

Splitting the sites isn't necessarily a cost issue but it would require more time, would (in my opinion) complicate the structure (I would then effectively be running three sites that talk about Epic - here, the resources site, and SG) and would then potentially confuse new players about where to find both discussion and documents. For the significantly minor gain of a specific URL (when the majority of people either use a search engine like Google, or go through word of mouth to find a web site). It is my opinion that a well optimised central site which performs better in search rankings is a better solution than a web address that is 'obvious but not trademark-infringing'.

Now, I do take the point that having more Epic presence on the front page would signal that people have 'arrived' better. ;D For example, a cool banner on the front page with an Epic game in progress would show not only what the focus of the site was, but also point to Epic as a large component. I could also add 'NetEA' as a menu item next to the Tactical Command Forum option. Heck, I could change that entire menu bar just for the NetEA section to give a totally different set of options - for example 'Netea - Rules - Suppliments - Army Lists - Tournaments - Other Documents'.

I think that the best thing for me to do is re-draft it and restucture what we have and then reveal it updated. In the meantime, the Compendium will remain there for access.

Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: NetEA website?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:28 am 
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Firstly, apologies for this long post.

I feel a bit awkward here as I never intended to undermine CS. We spoke over PM some time ago, I showed him what I had done, he loosely outlined his general plans for this place and IIRC was clear that he wanted to do it himself. I offered the code and we briefly discussed if it could fit into this site (I used Drupal 7, CS is using Drupal 6 IIRC) but I don't think he was too interested and I know he has done a lot for the community so I took it no further. The reality is I did not do this to cause trouble, I would like to see the community get what it decides is best for it. I am happy to give code/data away, just as I will be happy to host an independent site for free. Unlike the forum, the website will never be high traffic and so, as CS says, cost is a non-issue. I would not want to see CS maintaining 3 websites, and indeed separating it out and spreading the load would make it easier for him and allow him to focus on his own vision for the TWG/TC site.

You are also right to be concerned about potential confusion, but IMO this is just as big a risk associated with attempting to do three conceptually different things using the same web domain. As a user, to me separating them would be less confusing, not more. And for the record, like others I thought a separate NetEA site was the original plan. I think this is best for clarity; the brand and goals of TWG and NetEA are different. I actually think separating them fits both sets of goals well. TWG would be a place for collating unofficial information, even independent critique, and discussion about the games and miniatures. The official website is for an undiluted central reference point, and the public face of NetEA. No organisation wants its brand to be mixed in with others, that's why they have their own website. Far from being confused, this is what consumers expect to see. The crux for me is that if I were in your shoes, CS, I would want my site to have a clear brand identity and you seem to have already acknowledged that it needs this, and have determined what it will be. Continuing to have a Jekyll/Hyde identity might not be a disaster for either party, but I don't think it is optimal.

Having recently come back to Epic after a long hiatus, I hope I can offer a the perspective of a new user. I found the the status quo very confusing. This is despite the fact that I actually witnessed the transition from the old official SG site, so I knew it was complicated in the past. I was disappointed that, as I perceived it, the community had not organised itself into a "product" in the way NetEpic has. There are lots of complicated and subtle reasons, so IMO a fresh start and a fresh perspective has the potential to be a great thing for Epic. But TBH the biggest factor in the success or failure of any solution will be making sure the site is actually used. If it falls out of date, things take too long because only one person has the power to change things, the right people don't have access to upload stuff etc, it is dead in the water. The wiki is being removed because it was not used, and it is worth taking a long hard look at what will create the best chance of success (not what is easiest or familiar).

Perhaps I projected my own sense of what was lacking onto the wider community's request for a NetEA website, but it was this "brand identity" that I thought would be the biggest benefit of a website. So I thought about what would make this happen. For me this was three main things, in decreasing order of importance:
1. Provide an information source that is authoritative and totally free of "noise" from third parties.
2. Explain all the confusing acronyms and versions of Epic. Possibly even a timeline diagram.
3. Provide an easy to use tool for finding army lists that are missing from the official set.
(These are in addition to the functions needed by the existing NetEA community).

The other benefit I foresaw was that it would serve to add some structure to list development. That is, every time an AC or Sub AC produces a variation of list, a document for it goes onto the website. Everything is automatically tracked, it reminds ACs to version or date the documents, and the latest version is always clear. This would tie in with the discussion we had on the path from experimental to approved and how it fits with the compendium. I proposed that changes to approved lists would be handled by producing playtest "in development" versions of the list, which go through successive iterations until they are made into an approved list ready for the next compendium. The website would allow people to see every version of the list if they wanted to, and would comfortably allow newer "in development" versions of "approved" lists to exist, but the important thing is that it would do this without confusing people who just want to be shown the "best" list. As an aside, it would also make questions like "Didn't revenants have MW4+?" much easier to answer in future.

It is by no means perfect, there is tidying up to do and more would need to be done to make it clear what the situation with Tyranids is, for instance. But I'm actually quite pleased with the result so far because I think it makes a complicated situation quite usable, and yet has minimal overhead on an ongoing basis. In short, it would make the NetEA look like an organised community, which would do wonders for 40K players' confidence that the game is indeed well supported.

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 Post subject: Re: NetEA website?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:27 pm 
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I have not got the time to reply in depth right now, but I just wanted to post quickly to say that I really appreciate Kyrts contribution and he should not feel that he has 'undermined' me in any sense. We did chat about this a while ago, and it was not that I was intending to do it myself necessarily but more along the lines that at that stage I was not quite ready to make concrete plans.

The reason for this is that I am about to upgrade the web server that we are currently based on. It is clear that we have outgrown the shared hosting and I have spent the last week or so researching VPS deals and I have now found one that I am happy with. Therefore, I will being moving the site across to this new type of web hosting. Those aware will know that VPS negates most of the additional cost of a seperate site as well. However, with the evolution and testing that these boards and the main site have gone through (and I am using Drupal 7 currently) I will not just transfer the site to the new host but rebuild the site from scratch. This is also why the Wiki will be disappearing.

At the current time, I have been playing the devlopment cards close to my chest. The main reason for this is that I am still working things out myself, and with multiple working on various aspects of the site, it increases the chance of misunderstandings. (For example, if one article is tagged as Epic and another as EA, it makes them much harder to find, and this is the kind of communication issue that can happen in a team which are working asynchronously.)

That said, it is my plan to appoint 'sub-editors' to the site (but, not many initially) to work on different aspects and keep it ticking over and gaining momentum.

Also, I do like what Kyrt has done, and I am now considering the best wat forwards. Kyrt, I will drop you a PM shortly.

Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: NetEA website?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:33 pm 
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I'm not really aux-fais with the technological scaffolding holding things up, nor do I know the inns and outs of hosting deals etc, I'm just concerned that we're five months into 2012 and there's no central website to hold the 2012 army compendium and the 2012 FAQ - that being a place we can point newbies to when they say "I'm new and confused!".

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 Post subject: Re: NetEA website?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:29 pm 
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So, am I to assume that the people have spoken, and a seperate NetEA web site as a resource pool is the preferred setup? If so, I will get on this asap. Thanks.

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 Post subject: NetEA website?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:50 pm 
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Personally I would not mind terribly if the site was or was not named taccoms (although I'd prefer it was) as long as there is a place to find the latest documents. I only started epic a few moths ago and nearly gave up as I was presented with various codexs, rule books, compendiums, handbooks etc. from a myriad of sites, some obviously pur of date. Only a very old bols article, then advice from the forum kept me going. I'm still not convinced I have the latest version of the compendium.

I would love to just go somewhere and see what the different types of epic are, what the differences between them are and what the latest documents for each are. If that comes under the taccoms banner and looks pretty all the better, as long as it exists.

Maybe a taccoms site that explains what NetEA, Epic UK, NetEPIC, Epic Armageddon are, then links to the appropriate sites, with NetEA linking to another page on the Taccoms site explaining exactly what it is and what documents to use.

Personally I'd also like to have a unit wiki to contribute to and find obscure units that I don't know from 40k.


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 Post subject: Re: NetEA website?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:41 am 
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CyberShadow wrote:
So, am I to assume that the people have spoken, and a seperate NetEA web site as a resource pool is the preferred setup? If so, I will get on this asap. Thanks.


well, at least part of it is the need for redundancy - You've done a huge amount of work for the community CS, and if you got hit by a bus tomorrow I assume you'd like to see it continue...


@Matus - there was a wiki, but it never really developed. there's only so much development effort to go around, and much of it is poured into list development with the rest going on thngs like the compedium (thanks dave) and the website (thanks CS)

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 Post subject: Re: NetEA website?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:47 am 
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I'd say acquire www.epicarmageddon.net, throw up Kyrt's site at it, and worry about perfection later. :P

I'd recommend a URL with epicarmageddon in it over one with simply netea. Another option might be to buy www.netepic.com and offer to trade with www.epicarmageddon.com.

Anyway:
It doesn't need to be complicated. It needs to be easily found, accessible to newbies, and to have the most current versions of files (and, ideally, have it be possible for several people to replace those files if necessary, so if someone goes AWOL or is busy they can still be updated promptly.

:)

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 Post subject: Re: NetEA website?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:05 am 
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CyberShadow wrote:
So, am I to assume that the people have spoken, and a seperate NetEA web site as a resource pool is the preferred setup? If so, I will get on this asap. Thanks.


yeah this is my preferred setup for reasons already stated better by others.

Thanks for all your work on this site and community CS! Image


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 Post subject: Re: NetEA website?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:16 am 
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Matus wrote:
Personally I would not mind terribly if the site was or was not named taccoms (although I'd prefer it was) as long as there is a place to find the latest documents. I only started epic a few moths ago and nearly gave up as I was presented with various codexs, rule books, compendiums, handbooks etc. from a myriad of sites, some obviously pur of date. Only a very old bols article, then advice from the forum kept me going. I'm still not convinced I have the latest version of the compendium.

I would love to just go somewhere and see what the different types of epic are, what the differences between them are and what the latest documents for each are. If that comes under the taccoms banner and looks pretty all the better, as long as it exists.

Maybe a taccoms site that explains what NetEA, Epic UK, NetEPIC, Epic Armageddon are, then links to the appropriate sites, with NetEA linking to another page on the Taccoms site explaining exactly what it is and what documents to use.

Personally I'd also like to have a unit wiki to contribute to and find obscure units that I don't know from 40k.


Well, much of what you are describing is the goal for the project, no matter where it is or what it is called. If there is a seperate site, this would deal with EA/NetEA only, and articles here would compare the differences, etc. And, as noted, we did attempt a wiki but it was underused. I am not going to say that we will never give it another attempt, but it will need to be thought through.

madd0ct0r wrote:
well, at least part of it is the need for redundancy - You've done a huge amount of work for the community CS, and if you got hit by a bus tomorrow I assume you'd like to see it continue...


That's how it is then.... Good to know I would be missed. ;D

Simulated Knave wrote:
I'd say acquire http://www.epicarmageddon.net, throw up Kyrt's site at it, and worry about perfection later. :P

I'd recommend a URL with epicarmageddon in it over one with simply netea. Another option might be to buy http://www.netepic.com and offer to trade with http://www.epicarmageddon.com.

Anyway:
It doesn't need to be complicated. It needs to be easily found, accessible to newbies, and to have the most current versions of files (and, ideally, have it be possible for several people to replace those files if necessary, so if someone goes AWOL or is busy they can still be updated promptly.

:)


Well, where-ever this resource is, I am afraid that we cannot have trademark terms in the URL/address. If this is going to be set up for the future, and gain a reputation for being ground zero for EA, we need to make sure that we don't end up in the same situation as www.talkbloodbowl.net. Putting 'Epic Armageddon' in the URL will result in GW demanding that we remove it at some point in the future. We can use something more generic like 'www.netarmageddon.com'.

Borka wrote:
yeah this is my preferred setup for reasons already stated better by others.


Thanks. While this thread appears to show unanimous support for a seperate site, there is a low response rate compared to the forum population and I want to make sure that everyone is in agreement and any concerns are picked up.

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 Post subject: Re: NetEA website?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:50 pm 
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Well, where-ever this resource is, I am afraid that we cannot have trademark terms in the URL/address. If this is going to be set up for the future, and gain a reputation for being ground zero for EA, we need to make sure that we don't end up in the same situation as http://www.talkbloodbowl.net. Putting 'Epic Armageddon' in the URL will result in GW demanding that we remove it at some point in the future. We can use something more generic like 'www.netarmageddon.com'.


The trademark applies to the word Epic itself, so we'd have to avoid the use of that - which'd basically result in a URL that has nothing to do with anything.

If we do some variant of http://www.netea.whatever, .net is the only generic domain name available (.com, .org and .info are all occupied). And http://www.netea.net feels redundant.

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 Post subject: Re: NetEA website?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:48 pm 
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i agree the NetEA site needs an identity that is separate from tacticalwargames. However, i think http://tacticalwargames.net/netea will be fine as a (temporary?) home.

the NetEA site should just contain information for newbies and links to core resources. All other content could be accessed via tacticalWargames: news, discussions, articles, development, etc. That way the NetEA site stays simple and wouldn't have to change very often.

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 Post subject: Re: NetEA website?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:14 am 
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A fair point, adam. I'd agree.

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 Post subject: Re: NetEA website?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:18 pm 
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adam77 wrote:
i agree the NetEA site needs an identity that is separate from tacticalwargames. However, i think http://tacticalwargames.net/netea will be fine as a (temporary?) home.

the NetEA site should just contain information for newbies and links to core resources. All other content could be accessed via tacticalWargames: news, discussions, articles, development, etc. That way the NetEA site stays simple and wouldn't have to change very often.


I think that this is where we are heading towards generally, whether as a seperate site or an annex of this one. The idea would be for a relatively static site aimed at the casual/new player. It would have all of the basic downloads and really be a resource site more than anything else. I think that it should also only have the more stable/finalised army lists. It should be a place that we point players to who just want to play a game of Epic that is balanced and fun. It would contain a link to the GW rules, the Compendium, the two published suppliments and FAQs and the stable army lists only. That would be it. We could then say 'here is everything you need for a game of Epic'. That site would need an update once or twice a year. The 'in development' rules and stuff that needs more balancing and alternations would be here/in a core section. This would stop confusion about 'what is the latest stable version', etc.

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