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One rule book to bring them all together...
CyberShadow
 Post subject: One rule book to bring them all together...
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:40 pm 
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Firstly, many thanks to okpjay890 for taking the time to post a breakdown of the French perspective on the IG and Marines in EA. It is appreciated.

Secondly, it seems a little strange to have two separate sets of rules, just because of language differences. I am sure that the French developers have made the changes that they have as a result of logic, rules discussion and playtesting, much as we do here.

It also seems that, looking at these two threads, many of these rules changes are either supported or have been considered here as well.

So, how could we attempt to bring these two sets of opinions together into a single set, and how could we maintain this?

I would very much like to get the French players on board and both of our groups agreeing on a single set of rules - and I would like to bring in the Finns and the tournament players as well in time.

This is a strange issue, as it comes down to language differences. I know that I would hate to say that all discussion on the Tau would happen in French, and I am sure that they feel that same way.

Any suggestions?

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Dave
 Post subject: One rule book to bring them all together...
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:47 pm 
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I agree that it would be great to have everyone using the same set of rules.  Indeed, though I may never play with the French, the Finns or anyone else across the pond it would be reassuring to know that we are all one community playing, testing and developing the same rules.

You hit the nail on the head though, I believe it comes down to the language barriers.  While it is unrealistic for us to use the same forum I think maybe a liaison to these separate groups that keeps us in touch would be great.  

Someone who is bi-lingual and who frequents both TacComms and the other forums where the French, the Finns and etc. discuss.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: One rule book to bring them all together...
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:53 pm 
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Yep, I think the solution is to have a liaison or two, who can keep each forum updated with the latest goings-on, and where nessesary, explain to a forum what certain poll questions ask, so that participants can vote in public polls.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: One rule book to bring them all together...
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:24 pm 
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I would like to see it happen but I think the language barrier will be a huge obstacle to overcome.  Heck, the rules are misunderstood by the entire English speaking world.  Expecting even a bilingual person to pick up on every nuance and detail will be a difficult task.

Our best bet is to focus on the NetERC and trying to make these things work in English.  From there I think a liaison type of relationship is all we can hope for much in the same way okpjay890 did just recently.  The information can be digested by the NetERC and contrasted against what is going on here.  In the end though, if the NetERC says we do A and the F-ERC says do B, we should do A.  Hoping for an international consensus will work about as well as the United Nations does and will only drag out decision making.

Actually I think the development of different Epic rules styles could be healthy as it would generate less discussion and more play.  More play equals more data which are vastly more useful than opinions.  If one community is having a problem with -for example- demolishers and another community is not, then its time to compare notes.

As much as I'd love to jet off to Paris for a one-off game of Epic, it realistically isn't going to happen.

Questions: How often do you Brits go to France for an Epic game or Epic tournament?  How often do you see French players coming to to GB for the same?

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: One rule book to bring them all together...
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:36 pm 
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(Hena @ Mar. 27 2008,09:42)
QUOTE
Besides wasn't Chroma going to come to that US tournament?

Possibly, but he doesn't need to take a plane. He can drive here.

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vanvlak
 Post subject: One rule book to bring them all together...
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:45 pm 
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I would by far prefer having a common, international set of rules, otherwise I'd have to start writing the Maltese edition!
:(  :ghostface:
And I don't even know how to translate 'formations!', let alone something as abstract as 'inspiring'.

Hmm, how does the first sentence of teleport sound to you:

2.1.17 Teletrasport
Truppi li kapaci jitteletrasportaw jitfaccaw ghall-gharrieda fuq il-kamp tal-battalja ghax ghandhom makkinarju jew sharijiet li jhalluhom imorru minn post ghall-iehor f'salt; jew inkella ghax tant jinqalghu biex jinhbew li jfeggu ghall-gharrieda bhallikieku gew mix-xejn.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: One rule book to bring them all together...
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:49 pm 
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makkinarju jew sharijiet... jew inkella ghax


Racist! :D



(Note that E&C is Jewish!)

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Moscovian
 Post subject: One rule book to bring them all together...
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:18 pm 
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Hena, it wouldn't necessarily lead to each country playing their own way, although it could.  Assuming that it did, the changes would be small IMO.  The idea of liasoning between the various international groups will most likely keep those differences small as one group 'steals' ideas from another.

But as a worst case scenario, yes, I see each group playing differently still as a better thing than some strange international consortium of Epic fanatics.  Germans I THINK play with similar or identical gaming rules as the French.  UK/US seem in alignment.  The Finns could conceivably break off and do their own thing or participate in one or the other.  South Pacific groups I can't comment on but my guess is they would align with the UK/US just out of ease of language.  Suffice to say we're not talking about dozens of groups - more like two or three.

FYI Canada is part of the US now.  It was renamed Acidrania (a US Subsidiary) back in the 1980's. :p  They must comply with all US gaming rules or be forced to identify with Quebec. :devil:

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vanvlak
 Post subject: One rule book to bring them all together...
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:26 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 27 2008,15:49)
QUOTE
makkinarju jew sharijiet... jew inkella ghax


Racist! :D



(Note that E&C is Jewish!)

Sorry to disappoint you, E&C, but 'j' is 'y' in Maltese.  :p
You would be Lhudi in Maltese.
I can see it could be a cause for concern in the Maltese translation of EA though, so maybe I'll give it a miss.  :p
At least I know someone bothered to read it :)

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: One rule book to bring them all together...
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:57 pm 
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(vanvlak @ Mar. 27 2008,11:26)
QUOTE
I can see it could be a cause for concern in the Maltese translation of EA though, so maybe I'll give it a miss.  :p
At least I know someone bothered to read it :)

I read it, but not that carefully.  :D Seriously though, would translating the rules into Maltese lead to more players? I'm guessing the answer is "No."

Back on topic, I would ideally like for all of us to be playing by the same set off rules, but I can see why there would be problems in translation.

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vanvlak
 Post subject: One rule book to bring them all together...
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:01 pm 
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I read it, but not that carefully.  :D Seriously though, would translating the rules into Maltese lead to more players? I'm guessing the answer is "No."

Right answer.

I'd say that if the rules are straightforward enough translation would not be a problem, if it's done well. It's the nuances which could cripple the business.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: One rule book to bring them all together...
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:17 pm 
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Germans I THINK play with similar or identical gaming rules as the French.


Sorry but no. We have no contact to the French groups. The Germans i know play with the Rulebook rules or with the Handbook rules.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: One rule book to bring them all together...
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:42 pm 
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Ah, perfect.  Even better - thanks BL!

So it looks like there are two main groups: the French and... everyone else? :)  For the most part you have the  UK, US, Acidrania, Germans, and South Pacific Groups playing a virtually identical game.  The primary language is English only by default (it is how the game was published) and I see TacCom as about as inclusive as it needs to be.  Heck, the current NetERC represents three different countries.  IMO you aren't going to get more representative than it is right now - not without bogging down the rules review process with yet another step (once the NetERC decides on something they elevate it to some International Board for decision).  

Just an informal liaison is sufficient from where I am looking.

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Ginger
 Post subject: One rule book to bring them all together...
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:12 pm 
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Some thoughts:-

1. The French community "did their own thing" for a variety of reasons mainly stemming from the total lack of GW involvement and the subsequent lack of progress in general. They also took the view that there would be little interraction, and that they could (and do) support the French community from their own boards.

2. A single set of rules is vastly preferable because even if we never actually meet, we need a single set of concepts upon which to base discussions and draw conclusions (eg the recent Banshee debate where there are now divergent solutions)

3. Play testing the rules is essentially complete (bar some significant development eg Neal's revised "Air rules"). The main debates are currently on army lists and unit stats.

The way forward is to get all the approved rule changes into the main text and get that up on the SG boards, and translated into the various languages - French, German, Finnish (and even Maltese if Vanvlak has the time and desire :p )

Next we need FAQ support in the various languages from a single text - here the NetERC can/should liaise with representatives from the various communities to ensure a single text with appropriate translations.

Finally, ideally there should be single army champs for each race (or approved reps where needed). These Army champioins should try to foster dialogue with the various communities and ensure that a single set of stats is produced where possible. I believe that this is the point of greatest divergence, but am not sure just how important that actually is.

In practice, this may all boil down to the appropriate, and informal, liaison between the F-ERC and the NetERC to cover off the various points; especially if the rest of the world is working from the english text.




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