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One rule book to bring them all together...

 Post subject: One rule book to bring them all together...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:40 pm 
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To reinforce what Chroma said and add some additional detail, a method for duplicating the original rulebook's layout which is not ridiculously onerous has been created/discovered.  Given that we're dealing with GW there are, of course, IP issues to consider.  If things go well we may be able to start generating an integrated document soon.  It still won't be quite as easy as copy/paste but it should go smoothly.

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 Post subject: One rule book to bring them all together...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:56 pm 
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Great news. Hope this spirit of co-operation with GW can continue.


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 Post subject: One rule book to bring them all together...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:37 pm 
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Quote: (Mephiston @ 25 Nov. 2008, 13:56 )

Great news. Hope this spirit of co-operation with GW can continue.

*laugh*  It's more of a giant not noticing the mice at its feet, than a "spirit of co-operation"... but it's getting things done.

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 Post subject: One rule book to bring them all together...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:32 pm 
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Quote: (Ginger @ 29 Mar. 2008, 12:58 )

So, Hena, what are the least controversial, minimalist changes you need to the Marine lists?? For what it's worth, I would like to see the following changes, possibly presented in order of priority like this:-

Land Raiders
Land Raiders underperform and are overpriced against other races / units to the extent that they are rarely used - yet this is one of the most iconic units in the game
- Land Raider FF improve to 4+
- Land Raider cost reduce to 350
- Land Raider Upgrade reduced to 75
(Note I would change the Land Raider upgrade to 75 points to simplify the army list maths)

Dreadnoughts
Again, one of the most iconic units, Dreadnoughts are rarely if ever used
- Dreadnought Armour improve to 3+
- Upgrade 1-3 Dreadnoughts

Vindicators
These are never used because they are so poor compared with Marine armour, which is itself generally underpowered / overpriced when compared with other races
- Vindicator speed to 25 cm,
- Vindicator weapon to MW4+

Predators
These tanks still underperform badly against other races / units in firepower and armour, so are rarely used
- Predator cost to 275

Terminators
The one Marine formation that is really a bit overpowered, so a price increase to reflect this
- Terminator cost to 350

=================
Note, I really want all the changes to be included, but IMO the others are perhaps just a little less urgent/more cosmetic.




I am far from expert on playing with/against SM in EA, but I like all of those suggested changes.

Overall I think it would be a great idea to be able to have an updated rulebook with firstly any rule changes/clarifcations and secondly with limited number of stat changes to basic 3 army lists.

Then we can look at Swordwind!!

:))

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 Post subject: One rule book to bring them all together...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:42 pm 
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Quote: (zombocom @ 29 Mar. 2008, 14:50 )


(Ginger @ Mar. 29 2008,12:58)
QUOTE
- Vindicator weapon to MW4+[/quote]
There is no way I would describe that as an uncontraversial change.

How many MW choices does core SM armylist have?

How easy is it for SM to take down war-engines?

How common a sight are Vindicators currently in SM armies?

I am no SM expert but from my limited experience of playing with/against SM the answers appear to be few, hard and rare respectively.

Unless I have miseed something the only MW that SM can field are landspeeders and allied Warhound Titans. I have never seen a SM player take down a Battle Titan or Gargant. And I never see Vindicators used- they overpriced/underpowered even compared to Predators, which are not exactly broken units in themselves!!

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 Post subject: One rule book to bring them all together...
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 12:07 am 
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Quote: (wargame_insomniac @ 25 Nov. 2008, 21:42 )

Unless I have miseed something the only MW that SM can field are landspeeders and allied Warhound Titans.

You have indeed missed something, which is that the demolisher cannon is also used on the leman russ demolisher, and it has been proven by extensive playtesting that it is broken at MW4+.

note that I didn't say it is the wrong decision, merely that it isn't uncontraversial. That's beyond doubt.

Current wisdom is to either improve the vindicator by upping the speed and adding walker or simply to drop the points cost down to 50.




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 Post subject: One rule book to bring them all together...
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 12:33 am 
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Quote: (zombocom @ 25 Nov. 2008, 23:07 )

Quote: (wargame_insomniac @ 25 Nov. 2008, 21:42 )

Unless I have miseed something the only MW that SM can field are landspeeders and allied Warhound Titans.

You have indeed missed something, which is that the demolisher cannon is also used on the leman russ demolisher, and it has been proven by extensive playtesting that it is broken at MW4+.

note that I didn't say it is the wrong decision, merely that it isn't uncontraversial. That's beyond doubt.

Current wisdom is to either improve the vindicator by upping the speed and adding walker or simply to drop the points cost down to 50.

Not really bacause you cant field Leman Russ Demolishers in a SM army!!

Are SM's short of MW? Are Vindicators underused?
I believe that the answer to both is yes and thus agree with the suggestion in Ginger's earlier post that Vindicators need boost.

If this makes Leman Russ Demolishers too good then the place to fix that is is the list of suggested changes for IG, not for SM.

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 Post subject: One rule book to bring them all together...
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 12:57 am 
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Once again, my point wasn't that it shouldn't be changed to MW, my point was that this change was contraversial and therefore shouldn't be in a list of uncontraversial changes.

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 Post subject: One rule book to bring them all together...
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 7:29 am 
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Current discussion aside it would be great to see the new rulebook:- keep up the good work chaps!
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 Post subject: One rule book to bring them all together...
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:15 am 
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Yes. I'm very much looking forward to seeing it, particularly to see what Marines changes made it in--I dig me the MW4+ Vindicators in the Handbook, at AP/AT3+, they're not worth it.


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 Post subject: One rule book to bring them all together...
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:40 am 
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Quote: (nealhunt @ 25 Nov. 2008, 14:40 )

To reinforce what Chroma said and add some additional detail, a method for duplicating the original rulebook's layout which is not ridiculously onerous has been created/discovered.  Given that we're dealing with GW there are, of course, IP issues to consider.  If things go well we may be able to start generating an integrated document soon.  It still won't be quite as easy as copy/paste but it should go smoothly.

This would be lovely indeed. And a big thanks to all involved.

To what extent will it be possible to at the same time streamline part of the rules?
Adjustments to army lists is an on-going endeavour, but I've felt that rules aren't as open to debate.

(Yeah I know, I've been a royal pain in the obnoxious ass. Sorry about that, there's a genuine benevolent interest behind that thou. Never the less, sorry.)

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