Tactical Command
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/

New FW Epic Vulture
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=985
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Author:  Shagrat Nutbraker [ Sat Feb 21, 2004 5:18 pm ]
Post subject:  New FW Epic Vulture

Hello,

Whilst reviewing numerous on line army lists and complining thousands of varients for Imperial, Orc and Marine armys ...

What do people think about combining both infantry and armour ?

IE Infantry formation ( I.G. ) with 2 supporting tank formations.

Just thought Id ask.

Author:  Legion 4 [ Sat Feb 21, 2004 5:34 pm ]
Post subject:  New FW Epic Vulture

It is called the "Combined Arms" Concept and has been used successfully by most armies since WW2. ?You really must watch more of the History Channel ! :laugh: ?Tanks were originally designed in WW1 to support Infantry to break the stalemate of the trenchs that wide use of automatic weapons (machine guns) and rapid firing breach loading artillery had created. ?At the beginning of WW2 the Germans perfected the technique in the "Blitzkrieg" by combining tanks, infantry, artillery and air support. ?And that is basically what all modern armies use today. ?The US has taken it to the next logical step in the "Air-Land Battle Doctrine" successfully used in recent conflicts ... ?If you don't play Epic with combined arms, you may as well play WHFB ! :;): ?:O

Author:  Dooglebug [ Sat Feb 21, 2004 8:03 pm ]
Post subject:  New FW Epic Vulture

fair enough to say that combined arms is the way forward, it undoubtably is, but in a game system like this the exact way of utilising combined arms within the framework of the rules is what should be questioned. I would personaly tend to keep to more or less vehicle only and more or less infantry only formations for the reason that formations can't split fire so will be either wasting at or ap fire. On the otherhand i think the skill comes in using formations of infantry and vehicles together in support of each other to cover each others weaknesses.

Author:  iblisdrax [ Sat Feb 21, 2004 9:52 pm ]
Post subject:  New FW Epic Vulture

It is harder to do under this system, Epic A, but I still like to have at least one tank co. with supporting infantry attached to help ward off assaults and BM.

my 2cents,

iblisdrax

Author:  CrimsonFury [ Sat Feb 21, 2004 10:59 pm ]
Post subject:  New FW Epic Vulture

Quote (Dooglebug @ 21 2004 Feb.,19:03)
fair enough to say that combined arms is the way forward, it undoubtably is, but in a game system like this the exact way of utilising combined arms within the framework of the rules is what should be questioned. I would personaly tend to keep to more or less vehicle only and more or less infantry only formations for the reason that formations

I agree. In E:A I tend to keep my infantry and vehicles in seperate formations, but supporting each other. Not due to the lack of split fire, but becuase I find it more useful to be able to split the formations moveent when needed. eg infantry move onto one objective and tanks on the other.

Or if my russ tank comapny get assaulted by the enemy in close combat, next activiation I charge into a firefight with the infantry company sitting behind them :D. That kind of thing is harder to if they are part of the same formation. If they were in the same formation i'd only get 6 infantry stands with a 5cm counter charge instead of a 13 infantry (more with upgrades) with a 15cm enage move.

Author:  Shagrat Nutbraker [ Sat Feb 21, 2004 11:23 pm ]
Post subject:  New FW Epic Vulture

Fair points one and all .. suppose its just applying real life tactics to the GW rules.

Author:  Dooglebug [ Sun Feb 22, 2004 2:05 am ]
Post subject:  New FW Epic Vulture

The point about the movement is also a good one. I hate having very slow units in a formation holding up faster ones. I like to get my moneys worth out a unit.

Author:  Legion 4 [ Sun Feb 22, 2004 5:24 am ]
Post subject:  New FW Epic Vulture

Well I think you all get the basic concept of combined arms in the real world and E:A.  Infantry was given APCs/IFVs to keep up with AFVs.  Dismounted infantry can't walk as fast as tanks can move.  I know as I lead an Air Assault Plt. in the 101 and commanded a Mech Co. in the 197th Mech Bde.  That being said, we used activation since SM1 in '90.  Infantry with or without transport should not be in mixed dets with tanks.  Example of using combined arms in Epic : You activate an artillery unit and shoot at an enemy formation and do some damage.  He activates a unit and does an action.  You move and shoot a unit of your tanks and do more damage to the same Enemy unit.   He activates ... maybe shoots at your tanks !  You then activate an Infantry unit and shoot/firefight/Close Combat the attrited enemy unit and wipe it out.  Now I know this is a simplistic and contrived example, but I think you get the point.   Tanks and Infantry don't have to be in the same det. to do combined arms.  Combined Arms means in Epic using different units together to accomplish whatever your mission is.  Now Infantry transported in APCs/IFVs will obviously activate together in some cases.

Author:  nealhunt [ Mon Feb 23, 2004 8:29 pm ]
Post subject:  New FW Epic Vulture

Opsmed on the playtest board seems to be a very good tactician and he uses mixed formations extensively. ?Primarily, he uses Russ companies with mechanized infantry platoons.

The loaded chimeras stay near the back of the formation. ?Since they have good distance weapons, any suppression will probably be applied to them before the heavier Russ in front. ?It gives a tremendous boost in numbers for assaults, almost doubling from 10 to 19 units. ?It also gives a huge boost in FF for the same reasons.

But the thing that really surprised me when he pointed it out is that it gives a huge boost if the company is assaulted in hth. ?The chances of getting into base contact with the Chimeras in the back is slim, so the usually the troopers can pile out during countercharge and use their FF. ?Also, while your more valuable units (the Russ) are in base contact meaning they get hit first, they also have reinforced 4+ armor. ?You actually want them to take the hits first (from CC), even before the cheap infantry. ?That way, you shrug off more casualties, resulting in a much higher bonus on your assault resolution. ? Winning is the most important thing because it will actually result in a better preservation of your forces than "preserving" the expensive units during the assault only to lose them without a save if you lose the assault resolution.

Yes, you take a bit of additional risk if the chimeras are hit but they are in the back and only vulnerable to teleporters and air attacks and such. ?And since no infantry are exposed AP is still useless against the formation.

Darn slick if you ask me. :blues:

======================

Almost forgot...

A similar thing works with Russ and mounted infantry companies - keep the Russ in front to protect the transports until you unload.  Their firepower is varied enough that not much will be "wasted" by not splitting up fire.  Don't forget that any unit in an assault fires the same, regardless of whether they are AT or AP, too.  Again, Russ can very effectively  lead an assaulting infantry formation due to their high armor.

Griffons with an infantry company in cover can stay behind the terrain, out of LoS so they don't get sniped by AT, but they can still fire indirect.

Hellhounds with mech infantry can make sense.  They shield the transports from hits in the beginning and then pile on to any assaults.

Author:  Legion 4 [ Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:45 pm ]
Post subject:  New FW Epic Vulture

Nice example of good tactics and understanding of the rules.  I think Jervis made it a point to try and make the rules reflect modern tactics, somewhat.  Mech Infantry operating with Tanks is what it's all about ...

Author:  Tas [ Tue Feb 24, 2004 1:31 am ]
Post subject:  New FW Epic Vulture

Thanks neal- that was very clear and an excellent example of success in mixing unit typess.

Author:  nealhunt [ Tue Feb 24, 2004 7:52 pm ]
Post subject:  New FW Epic Vulture

My pleasure.

Author:  wargame_insomniac [ Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:12 pm ]
Post subject:  New FW Epic Vulture

These look great:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/evulture.htm

?10 for 2.

Cheers

James
aka wargame_insomniac

Author:  dafrca [ Tue Sep 14, 2004 9:03 pm ]
Post subject:  New FW Epic Vulture

Of course these show up the day after I received my last order.  :L

Oh well, now I have to place another order.  }:)

dafrca

Author:  primarch [ Tue Sep 14, 2004 9:06 pm ]
Post subject:  New FW Epic Vulture

Hi!

Nice. I suppose it that extra "jumbo" size like all their fliers..... ???

Primarch

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