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Epic in this months White Dwarf

CyberShadow

Post subject: Epic in this months White Dwarf

Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2003 11:38 am

Swarm Tyrant

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
Posts: 9350
Location: Singapore

I just wanted to find out a quick view of what people think about this combined magazine. Please let us know, and also check out the sister poll for Gothic. Thanks.

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Legion 4

Post subject: Epic in this months White Dwarf

Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2003 4:53 am

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
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Location: Ohio - USA

I sent G/W US a copy of Jervis's letter about Fanatic Mag, and asked what about my Epic sub ? Well good news - I can put the $ towards and Fanatic Mag sub or get a refund. A Fanatic Mag sub is $60.00 a year ... oh well ...

, it should be worth it ! :;):

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Shadow Hunter

Post subject: Epic in this months White Dwarf

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 11:54 am

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Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2003 11:41 am
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Location: Norton Canes, Cannock, Staffs, UK

Now I know that the Ork list is still undergoing alterations, but thought I'd ask these questions anyway. Especially as they may have already been asked over at the vault and answered. I dont know as I dont visit anymore.

Basically, I'm beginning to put together some Ork stuff and playing around with the army list.

What I noticed, I found odd. A couple of the costs of Ork stuff is a bit random.

Say, for instance, the warband. 250pts for 2 Nobz, 6 boyz and 2 grotz.

Now, using the prices for extras you get for 200pts, 2 Nobz 6 boyz and 4 grotz. 2 extra grotz for a saving of 50pts

Now I do realise that the cost for big and uge mobs reduces this. So in the case of the the warband its not a biggy.

However, it doesn't work on the Stormboyz.

Stormboyz-6 stands=200pts
Extra Stormboys-8 stands = 200pts

For this entry there is no point in increasing the mob size, as you'd get less storm boyz than buying a load of extras.

Now I realise you save points for increasing mob sizes in most entries. Stomps etc. Though this is to reward you for not taking the minimum of each choice.

Where are me warbosses? And 50pts for an oddboy? I find that a bit high.

So, in essence, any news on what's changing?

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CrimsonFury

Post subject: Epic in this months White Dwarf

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 12:56 pm

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Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 2:04 pm
Posts: 766

Don't worry, its not just you the Ork army list in the vault has a lot of weird stats\points costs. Jervis decided to change a bunch of things at the last minute that messed things up. Fortunately he listend when enough people complained, and several improvments will be in the final version of the list which should go up this week.

Heres the stuff I know Jervis posted on the official E:A forums:

ORK WARBANDS

Cost goes to 200/350/500

Battlewagon cost increases to 35 points each

Number of extra Nobz is limited to 'up to 2' (but remember this multiplies up for big and 'uge formations), cost becomes 35 pts each, but lose the free boy.

Stompas cost increases to 75 points.

STORMBOYZ

Cost changes to 175/na/na and Battlewagons are removed from extras.

KOS

Basic formation becomes eight units, cost becomes 200/350/500

BB (The big change!)

Boyz and Nobz removed from extras column.

possibly bring back options for bikes\buggies\skorchas upgrades.

STOMPAMOB

Extra Stompas cost +75 points each

BIG GUNZ

Cost changes to 150/225/300

Extra Orks limited to 'up to two'.

Extra Nobz limited to 'up to one', cost becomes +35 points, lose free boy.

LANDA

Cost becomes 200/na/na

Allow dreads + killa kans in landas.

All of the above info is in this thread http://forums.specialist-games.com/epic40k....hpage=1

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Shadow Hunter

Post subject: Epic in this months White Dwarf

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 1:03 pm

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Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2003 11:41 am
Posts: 1747
Location: Norton Canes, Cannock, Staffs, UK

Thanks for the info, and link. I'll go and have a look, then comment.

Ta.

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Shadow Hunter

Post subject: Epic in this months White Dwarf

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 1:34 pm

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Okay, I read the thread.

I too can't understand the +40pt difference for 4 BW over 1 BF. It seems a bit high. I do see the vulnerabilities of the BF, but think that at only 100pts, that's already been taken into account for. BW should be around 30pts max I reckon (though I did agree 25pts was cheap, although the Chimera is the same cost for a better vehicle)

The points value of the warband is a lot better. 250pts was too high for the first cost. I think losing the free boyz on the Nobz is a good thing too. If you want more boyz, buy 'em.

50pts for Stompa was cheap, I dont have a problem with 75pts.

6 Stormboyz @ 175pts is still over 29pts each rather than 25pts for extras. But I can live with it, as they are their own formation this way.

KOS is good news, since I wanted a large unit of them. This makes it much better. Although up to 16ish units the previous list was cheaper.

I wasn't really bothered by a BB anyway. So I had not played around with that option. I do think taking out the option for boyz/nobz is a good idea. It should be a unit of tanks, rather than another warband.

Big Gunz up to 150pts!!!!

I wasn't gonna use them at 100pts, so definantly wont now.

I take it Landa's are always in a formation of one now then. Glad they can carry dreads and kanz now.

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MaksimSmelchak

Post subject: Epic in this months White Dwarf

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 2:19 pm

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Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:43 pm
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Location: Sacramento, California, USA

I think that I'd convinced that Jervis under player prodding wants to return the Orks to the same balance level that they had in his beloved E-40k (the last failed edition).

This means that the Orks simply put, will stink compared to other armies.

I know I'm repeating my mantra, but I've seen the Orks go from very competitive (and even innovative) to being the same ol' pattern slugging army that they were in E-40k.

We can say that it gives the army "colour flavour," but it also makes the army one of the least fun to play. The other two stock armies are simply more competitive.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

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CrimsonFury

Post subject: Epic in this months White Dwarf

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 3:36 pm

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Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 2:04 pm
Posts: 766

Quote (Shadow Hunter @ 04 2003 Nov.,12:34)

50pts for Stompa was cheap, I dont have a problem with 75pts.

Big Gunz up to 150pts!!!! ?

? I wasn't gonna use them at 100pts, so definantly wont now.

I take it Landa's are always in a formation of one now then. ?Glad they can carry dreads and kanz now.

Yeah, the stompa got an extra big gun in the last update of the list, thats part of the reason for the points increase (stompa mobz are still 200 points, so now you get a discount for buying them in bulk

)

I agree on the big gunz, not sure why they went up so much. For the same points cost you can buy a BlitzBrigade with 4 gunwagons. You get 1 less gun, but 3 times the speed, 5+ armour instead of none, and double the CC value.

Yes the landa's are now formations of 1. It seemed a bit too powerful to be able to drop of 30 Ork units in a single action. Plus they would have been really hard to take out with flak\interceptors when in formations of 3.

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CrimsonFury

Post subject: Epic in this months White Dwarf

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 3:37 pm

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Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 2:04 pm
Posts: 766

MaksimSmelchak, using the changes above, what is it about the Ork army that you think makes them unfun to play or uncompetetive?

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nealhunt

Post subject: Epic in this months White Dwarf

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 3:47 pm

Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

Big Gunz: I think they are okay for the price of the Big and Uge formations. In fact, Uge formations are still the same price as before. I would never field them as less than Big, though. I have fielded them as Big/Uge, adding enough boyz and nobz to get the mob-up bonus and leader abilities. Don't understimate their combined firepower. They can be quite shooty.

I think a Big formation, with 2 Nobz and 4 Boyz/Grots will have a lot of fire (10 AT/AP5+, 8 AT/AP6+) and durability (+1 mob up, 2 leaders, 4 grots to soak hits/BMs, all infantry) for a 395 point formation. I'm definitely willing to try it out.

Also, now that the upgrades multiply with the formation size, you can upgrade a Big formation with 2 Supagunz for a 4BP barrage; 3 upgrades/6BP for a Uge formation.

Battlewagon/battlefortress: I think the 100 for a Battlefortress versus 140 for the battlewagons is a bit much. I agree that 30 points would be better, but I doubt it will change.

Overall, I think it's okay, and it did fix some potentially abusive problems. I'm just kind of ticked that after getting to the "minor tweaks" point there is a major, last-minute reorganization.

Maksim: Had you noticed that you can now take your multiple supastompas? A Big stompamob can have 2, 3 in a Uge formation. Also, both stompas and supastompas got an extra gun (big gun and soopagun respectively). I thought for sure that with your stompa fetish you'd think that a grand improvement.

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Shadow Hunter

Post subject: Epic in this months White Dwarf

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 4:20 pm

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Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2003 11:41 am
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Location: Norton Canes, Cannock, Staffs, UK

I'll have a play around with some lists tonight.

My girlfriend phoned me up at work, to tell me my package from forgeworld just arrived, so I now have 3 guntrukks with zzap guns and 3 guntrukks with armoured top to add in. Plus the defence line set and ruined Librarium.

And tommorrow my Digital camera is due to arrive, so I can start taking some pics. :blues:

Onto the list - where is it that landas can now carry dreads? I didn't notice it in that thread.

I suppose the big gunz do have potential, but I dont want a stationary force. I have a pic in my mind of how I want my force to look, and I dont think they will fit in.

I do agree though, that 2 soopa guns would be very effective (if pricey)

It is annoying that there's just been a big revision, but then the rules aren't released yet. Best to get it right before they are.

At least now when I get to try this out against my newbie friend, it wont seem like I have an unbalanced force. I dont want him thinking I've chose the stronger list.

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CrimsonFury

Post subject: Epic in this months White Dwarf

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 5:17 pm

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Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 2:04 pm
Posts: 766

Quote (Shadow Hunter @ 04 2003 Nov.,15:20)

Onto the list - where is it that landas can now carry dreads? ?I didn't notice it in that thread.

Jervis's post about allowing dreads\killa kans in landas is the last post in this thread: http://forums.specialist-games.com/epic40k....hpage=2

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CrimsonFury

Post subject: Epic in this months White Dwarf

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 5:21 pm

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Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 2:04 pm
Posts: 766

Quote (nealhunt @ 04 2003 Nov.,14:47)

Big Gunz: ?I think they are okay for the price of the Big and Uge formations. ?In fact, Uge formations are still the same price as before. ?I would never field them as less than Big, though. ?I have fielded them as Big/Uge, adding enough boyz and nobz to get the mob-up bonus and leader abilities. ?Don't understimate their combined firepower. ?They can be quite shooty.

True, but the new points costs for big gunz formations are identical to blitz brigades. And blitz brigades can also have oddboy upgrades. So you sacrifice 1 big gun, but gain speed, armour + CC abilities.

I agree the last minute changes were annoying, I would have prefer if the list had been left alone or given more time to test, but oh well. The end result doesn't seem too bad IMO.

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nealhunt

Post subject: Epic in this months White Dwarf

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 6:20 pm

Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

I see your point on the BBs, but I think that's about right. Basically, I'd say they are different tools for different jobs.

Gunz get 25% more units. That gives them more shots, and goes a long way toward equalizing assaults. They are infantry, which means they can move through difficult terrain and take advantage of cover. Also, a BB does not have access to any Leader ability or to grots to soak hits, which can each make a big difference.

I certainly wouldn't advise taking a force of mostly Gunzmobz, but they have a place...

especially in any self-respecting Bad Moon Clan!

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CrimsonFury

Post subject: Epic in this months White Dwarf

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 6:32 pm

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Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 2:04 pm
Posts: 766

Quote (nealhunt @ 04 2003 Nov.,17:20)

They are infantry, which means they can move through difficult terrain and take advantage of cover. ?Also, a BB does not have access to any Leader ability or to grots to soak hits, which can each make a big difference.

True, now that infantry have been removed from BB's it makes them more vulnerable, which can make biggunz attractive in some situations.

Also I just remembered another advantage of biggunz is that they can be deployed as garrisons.

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