Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 

Epic UK Vanahiem Air Cav Musings

 Post subject: Epic UK Vanahiem Air Cav Musings
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:15 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:37 am
Posts: 128
Hello all,

I'm not gonna pretend to be the most experienced of players, but I have used the Vanahiem list quite a few times.

I have a few thoughts on potential changes for the list to make it slightly less 'one dimensional' when it comes to list building.
I understand the army lists do have inbuilt weaknesses, at the moment however pretty much all 3000 point lists will look the same with maybe a slight difference between how many sentinels to aircraft are taken.

Without destroying the theme of the list, I'd like to propose a few serious changes. I by no means believe that all of these should occur, many of these ideas address the same problem just in different ways.

Additional Formations:

Air Cavalry Platoon - 1 Vanaheim Commander, 5 Vanaheim Infantry, 3 Valkyries (one may be a Vendetta) - 225/250 points. Support Formation.
Tauros Assualt Squadron - 6 Tauros Assault Buggies (LV/35cm/6+/6+/5+. Armed with a 30cm AP4/AT5+ weapon. Has Scout). 200 points. Support Formation.
(I think the list has too many large formations and not enough mid-sized / point ones. The above two formation ideas would help to mitigate this. I think the Tauros idea would be the better of the two, I don't think the list needs more ways to get Valkyries)!
Marauder Destroyer - A single Marauder Destroyer - 150 Points. (The list heavily relies on flyers. Making the Destroyer available at a smaller formation size would help give more choices as to what to take. Also, the models are cool, but hard to fit in a list sometimes)!
Three Lightning / Thunderbolts - 200/225 points? (Being the only source of AA, having the option to bring a larger wing of fighters on CAP would occasionally help).


Unit Changes:

Valkyries-
Change the Valkyries to be able to carry two Sentinels, rather than one. It better fits the fluff and doing this would also elegantly solve the mid-sized formation problem mentioned above, allowing a 200 point formation of 6 units. I think this should be done regardless of whether the other options above happen.

Mortars-
The Mortar units are poop. They remove the Disrupt ability of the Valks if fired at the same time. I don't think they need to be BP weapons. The Barran Siege Masters light arty isn't for example. So two potential solutions:
1). Change the weapons. 2xAP5/AT6 or 3xAP6 instead. Range 30. Indirect Fire. Or maybe 1xAP4/AT6 but with 45cm range and Indirect Fire (the same as the Barran Light Artillery). All of these options make them better than Fire Support on a sustain, worse on a double, representing them quite nicely I think. May need to be bumped to the same price as the Fire Support upgrade if this happens.
2). Remove the Mortar units entirely and just abstract them in to Fire Support units to streamline the list. They will never get used anyway as they are!


Upgrades:

Allow Air Cav companies to take the 2x Imperial Guard Sniper upgrade and associated Valkyries. 100 points.

_________________
6mm Modular Scenery in development: http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=26235


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Vanahiem Air Cav Musings
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:44 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 9379
Location: Manalapan, FL
What's the distinction between Van and Elysians?

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Vanahiem Air Cav Musings
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:28 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:37 am
Posts: 128
Elysians don’t have an Epic UK army list, their equivalent are the Vanahiem Air Cavalry

_________________
6mm Modular Scenery in development: http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=26235


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Vanahiem Air Cav Musings
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:51 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 9379
Location: Manalapan, FL
sorry then that's just elysians but another name. would be rather nice if they had a distinct theme (say Glider assault vs paratroopers)

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Vanahiem Air Cav Musings
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:57 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:43 pm
Posts: 1334
Location: Devon, UK
jimmyzimms wrote:
sorry then that's just elysians but another name. would be rather nice if they had a distinct theme (say Glider assault vs paratroopers)

There’s a mixup somewhere. Vanaheim is a pure air cav list plus Sentinels, and doesn’t include any drop troops or teleport options that I’m aware of.

_________________
The Wargaming Trader
NetEA Death Guard Army Champion


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Vanahiem Air Cav Musings
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:42 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:37 am
Posts: 128
Yep, they’re air cavalry that operate solely from Valks. The Elysian army list from Net EA seems to have them teleport on to the table predominantly (though they have Valks as an option). They’re quite different lists, but both could fairly represent Elysian regiments.

_________________
6mm Modular Scenery in development: http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=26235


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Vanahiem Air Cav Musings
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:27 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 9379
Location: Manalapan, FL
Ok cool! Just all the sudden there's talk about Elysian light vehicles and the like so made me ask. Appreciate you taking the time to explain!

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Vanahiem Air Cav Musings
PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 4:23 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:32 pm
Posts: 4875
Location: North Yorkshire
Thank you for your thoughts and comments.

The list does have some difficulties and is not the easiest to play.

The problems with adding cheaper formations or splitting up some of the larger ones is that the potential number of activations in the army increases rapidly.

We have discussed increasing the number of Thunderbolts in the variant lists as they are just limited in the steel legion list due to the background in the war for Armageddon.

I do like your ideas for the unit changes and will suggest these the next time we look at the Imperial Guard lists.

Thanks again.

_________________
_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk - home of the UK Epic tournament scene
NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair
NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Vanahiem Air Cav Musings
PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:29 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:37 am
Posts: 128
Thanks for the response.

Tiny-Tim wrote:
The problems with adding cheaper formations or splitting up some of the larger ones is that the potential number of activations in the army increases rapidly.


Fair point, well made.
Having thought on it more, the suggestion of another Valkyrie born infantry formation just lowers the ‘entry price’ for having a decent amount of fast moving disrupt barrage with enough stands to avoid getting pinned. Ignore that ‘solution’ entirely ;D

I would say though, as long as something like the Taurus squadron I mentioned is kept to being a support formation, the problem of too many activations shouldn’t occur. If they were around 200 points, that’s already twice as expensive as sentinels, which could just as easily be spammed for cheaper.
It would give a different medium-sized flavour of formation to the list, but being scout and fast, still fits the theme.
With something like the weapon stats above, both types of Tauros can be abstracted into the same unit profile (twin multilasers / automatic grenade launcher would prob have about the same sort of stats I guess)?

Interesting about the aircraft unit sizes, wasn’t aware of that.
As they’re so heavily flyer reliant, I suppose other types could be introduced, such as the avenger (Stuka dive-bomber meets A-10 Warthog) or punisher variant of vulture. But that’s maybe just because I like the models!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Vanahiem Air Cav Musings
PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:21 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 7:27 pm
Posts: 5439
Location: Bristol
I feel Vannaheim could do with a bit of tweaking too. Overall the list seems slightly underpowered and the lists people use at tournaments are quite cooky-cutter and more samey than most other armies. My proposed suggestions are partly similar but a bit more conservative:

Two Sentinels can be transported in a Valkyrie or Vendetta in 40k so they should be able to in Epic. This could make mounted Sentinels viable cost wise adding two transports for 100 (I'd never pay to transport them currently) and an interesting proposition tactically.

Please could the core formation upgrades go down in cost as has happened with other IG lists? They're rarely taken as is as it's better to add cheap extra activations instead and they could add a bit more variety to lists. Say 75 for 2 fire support plus a Valk or 50 for two inf or mortars with a Valk

Mortar infantry synergise poorly with their transports, as if they fire together the disrupt is lost. Dropping the barrage and switching to something along the lines of 2 x 30cm AP5+ indirect would be better.

Maybe I'm missing something but I'm a bit dubious that Marauder Destroyers are better than regular Marauders; it seems quite situational either way between the two. I'd cost them at the same 250 rather than 275. In either case I dislike the suggestion above to drop to a single Marauder Destroyer in a formation though as two are more survivable against flak (so even if one gets shoot down at least the other gets to shoot) and it encourages spamming cheap units that Vannaheim does a lot already.

Lower priority than fixing existing units but perhaps add Tauros to the list? Elysians use them a lot. There are two different types FW sell models for - the 'Tauros Venator' is a fast moving LV with either twin Lascanon or twin Multilaser as it's sole weapon. These could be included but these weapons are already common on other vehicles in the list so they don't add much new and I wouldn't bother with them in the Epic list personally. The regular Tauros would be a 30-35cm 5+ armour LV scout armed with a Heavy Flamer though, which could add something new and different to the list as a support formation as is what I would suggest adding (though be good to balance them relative to sentinels so both are still viable choices rather than one or other being obviously better). Vanguard sell models for Tauros so it's easy for players to model.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Vanahiem Air Cav Musings
PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:28 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 7:27 pm
Posts: 5439
Location: Bristol
jimmyzimms wrote:
sorry then that's just elysians but another name. would be rather nice if they had a distinct theme (say Glider assault vs paratroopers)

I see them as basically renamed Elysians personally. I have no inside knowledge but I'm guessing the designers wanted to take the list in a different direction to the Net-EA Elysian list with all the teleports and such and so they named the list differently to keep them more distinct in people's minds (the Epic UK tank army similarly has a different name as it's also quite different to the Net-EA tank army).

There might not be actual rules for drop troops climbing down ropes or deploying from Valks using drop packs in the list but I assume Vannaheim do a lot of this too, just backgroundwise and abstracted into their general rules and not worth giving new extra rules for. Storm Troopers in the Steel Legion list in the background deploy by ropes from their Valks and such too sometimes but it's not worth adding rules for this either; better to keep things simple.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Vanahiem Air Cav Musings
PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:12 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:32 pm
Posts: 4875
Location: North Yorkshire
JFYI the starting of the Vanahiem list was the 'Ride of the Vakkyries' and Apocalypse Now and not drop troops.

_________________
_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk - home of the UK Epic tournament scene
NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair
NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Vanahiem Air Cav Musings
PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2021 12:09 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:37 am
Posts: 128
Tiny-Tim wrote:
JFYI the starting of the Vanahiem list was the 'Ride of the Vakkyries' and Apocalypse Now and not drop troops.


That's some fine inspiration.

I've made an attempt at formalising the musings into a list. 10000% unofficial of course, just thought I'd try writing up some various units and see how they would work in the list.

Changes are in blue.
The Vulture is available as an upgrade option for Air Cav companies. It also comes in the punisher flavour.
The Tauros is basically an IG skorcha. It has the same stats, bar having scout and being more expensive.
Had a go at writing up some other aircraft types, including the Avenger.
Points costs for the upgrades have a second option in brackets. This could be the cost of only taking one of the infantry upgrades and the associated Valkyrie. I think this would really help the list add extra units to separate the BTS from the Supreme Command detachment. Otherwise all the upgrades are rather pricey compared to other lists.

The actual serious suggestions from this that I would most like to see are:

Valkyries transporting 2 x sentinels.
Ability to take formation upgrades as a single infantry / mortar / sniper / heavy support with 1 x Valkyrie for a 25pts discount.
Ability to take flyers in threes.
Tauros formation.


Attachments:
TC Edit - Van Air Cav.pdf [194.94 KiB]
Downloaded 5 times
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Vanahiem Air Cav Musings
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2021 3:24 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:32 pm
Posts: 4875
Location: North Yorkshire
tc63 wrote:
Valkyries transporting 2 x sentinels.
Ability to take formation upgrades as a single infantry / mortar / sniper / heavy support with 1 x Valkyrie for a 25pts discount.
Ability to take flyers in threes.
Tauros formation.

I would test Valkyries tranporting 2 x sentinels & Ability to take flyers in threes.

I would be be careful trying to Vultures to formations as it will make them even more useful.

_________________
_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk - home of the UK Epic tournament scene
NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair
NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net