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Thunderhawk Gunships how they work for

 Post subject: Thunderhawk Gunships how they work for
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:07 am 
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I was trying to work out how to teach a friend of mine new to Epic Armageddon and starting a Blood Angels army how Thunderhawk Gunships work.

I have most of the basics down. Things like it being a WE means it can barge its way in and push non WE units away out of its ZOC when it lands.

It can unload a formation, or as many formatons as it can carry (but they must be complete formations). When it lands and unloads, it is treated as part of the formation/s and must take the same action as them - Engage or shoot are about the only options as the Thunderhawk is immobile while grounded and they can not take a normal move.

At the end of the turn/action, the Thunderhawk is then considered a separate formation and can fly off the table (if it has not been destroyed) Also since the Thunderhawk is not fearless, if the attackers lose the combat, then the Thunderhawk is auto destroyed, so is usually one of the units removed as part of casualty removal at the end of engagements.

I can find all those points and find them in the rules.

What I find hard to locate is the rule that says that you can not load back onto the same gunship at the end of the turn, just before the thunderhawk flies away. I know you have to load them on a separate gunship that has not taken part in the engagement, not I can not find where the rule is to show someone else.

Also I can forsee the person wanting to have say terminators on one gunship, and 2 4 unit assault squads on another. They would probably want to unload, engage, then reload onto the other thunderhawk that they had not arrived in, but I know that is not allowed. How can I explain it to the person and what reference pages/paragraphs can I quote?

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 Post subject: Re: Thunderhawk Gunships how they work for
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:44 am 
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An aircraft can disengage in the end phase if a formation moved on to it (either by activation or withdrawal). The only time it can't is when a unit disembarked from it while doing an air assault and that same unit uses its consolidation move to embark back on to the same aircraft. This is called out in the last FAQ on 4.2.5:

https://tp.net-armageddon.org/tournamen ... ound-units

So you could activate or withdraw a unit onto a landed THawk, or even consolidate onto a different THawk, and all THawks would be able to disengage that turn.

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 Post subject: Re: Thunderhawk Gunships how they work for
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:47 pm 
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Ah, last Question and Answer of the 4.2.5 section at the bottom of page 50 of the tournament pack.

Q: Can a unit that disembarked from an aircraft as part of an air assault use its
consolidation move to get back into the aircraft?
A: Yes, but the aircraft may not make a disengagement move.

So under air assault section, I can disembark the troops as part of an air assault. But I can not load any troops and then disengage. If I do not load troop, then I can disengage.

Under the Landing section, I can land and take no actions other than either loading or unloading units, and then proceed to carry out a ground attack, and disengage as normal at the end of the turn.

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Last edited by Deb on Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Thunderhawk Gunships how they work for
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:08 pm 
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Deb wrote:
That might clear things up. As it stands, I can drop 2 formations from 2 different thunderhawks, and then remount them on the other formations Thunderhawk, and disengage at the end of the turn. For some reason I think this is illegal.


You cannot, as you have to activate them separately. THawk 1 air assaults, presumably wins and then the transported formation can't consolidate onto the THawk if you want it to disengage. THawk 2 air assaults, presumably wins, and if all the remaining units are within 5cm of THawk 1 then they could consolidate onto it and have it disengage, as per the FAQ.

At most, you're recycling 1 formation if there's a small area where you can pull off 2 assaults from where THawks aren't blocking your FF LoF.

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 Post subject: Re: Thunderhawk Gunships how they work for
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:18 pm 
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Deb wrote:
So under air assault section, I can disembark the troops as part of an air assault. But I can not load any troops and then disengage. If I do not load troop, then I can disengage.


I think you're convoluting two parts of the AC rules. When an AC lands it can disembark, with it and the formation engaging (air assault) or shooting (ground attack). Alternatively, when the AC lands it could embark all formations (up to its transport capacity) that are within 5cm of it and then perform a ground attack.

Those are embarking/disembarking rules when the AC activates. Other units can activate/withdraw onto the AC (this is covered in the WE transport section).

But again, the only time an AC can't disengage is when a formation air assaulted out of it and then consolidated back on to the same AC.

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 Post subject: Re: Thunderhawk Gunships how they work for
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:24 pm 
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Deb wrote:
Also since the Thunderhawk is not fearless, if the attackers lose the combat, then the Thunderhawk is auto destroyed, so is usually one of the units removed as part of casualty removal at the end of engagements.


Only if there are enemies within 15 cm when losing... right??

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 Post subject: Re: Thunderhawk Gunships how they work for
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:49 pm 
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lord-bruno wrote:
Deb wrote:
Only if there are enemies within 15 cm when losing... right??


AC that lose an assault are destroyed unless they're fearless. That's in 4.2.5 as well (last sentence).

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 Post subject: Re: Thunderhawk Gunships how they work for
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:34 am 
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Okay, so I can planetfall in a thunderhawk (no.1) fully loaded with 2 assault formations, 1 death company, 1 assault. I planet fall thunderhawk (no.2) which just sits there nearby, and does nothing. Whether this is after the assault, or just prior, is something, I will need to define. Re-read the rules to see if it happens after. It will all depend on the loading rules for tansports, after an engagement.

The first thunderhawk has unloaded their units, which using the commander on the assault squad, and the chaplain on the death company to perform a combined assault using inspiring and the thunderhawk (no.1) FF. Assuming I win the assault, then as part of their consolidation move, 5cm/10cm for jump, I then mount thunderhawk (no.2).

Confusng with the remounting/consolidating rules as to when the second thunderhawk is deployed va planetfall, or ground assault/bombing run.

From here Thunderhawk (no.2) can then fly off performing a ground attack against a target, possibly the enemy I just finished defeating, hitting them with BM and possibly destroying through BM and killing units off from failed saves, or a new target that I fly over.

At the end of the turn, I can then disengage off the table with both thunderhawk gunships, and try to avoid any ground based AA on they pass within the AA's weapons range. I can then come on in the next turn and attempt to do the same thing, only this time, with no planet fall benefit, and all enemy AC and ground based AA can hit you on the way in, and on the way out.

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 Post subject: Re: Thunderhawk Gunships how they work for
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:44 am 
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Hi Deb, this question confused me too when I started way back.
The “consolidation errata” to 4.2.5 was added to stop the marine player from using a single transport to fly in, dismounting troops to assault a target, consolidating the troops back onto the transport and disengaging to repeat the same thing again the following turn.
So Consolidating is deemed to take place during the disengagement phase, preventing any transport from disengaging.

The way round this is to use two transports as Dave says
  • #1 flies in carrying troops and carries out the assault
  • #2 then flies in, landing next to the troops and embarks them before carrying out its action (usually shooting).
  • Both transports remain on the ground until the end of the turn when they can both disengage as neither has had troops ‘consolidate’ into them. However they are both bullet magnets and relatively easy to destroy on the ground, so this assault and pickup is usually the last activations made in a turn.

Planetfall works slightly differently in that it is the spaceship that activates to land various formations onto the table, each formation usually being ‘scattered’ before carrying out their actions later in the turn (any consolation on to a transport preventing the transport from disengaging).
However, the marines could be deployed by Drop pod, perform an assault as their own action and later in the turn, an empty transport could fly in and pick them up to carry out an air assault the following turn.

Note, when a transport planetfalls it lands and becomes a ground transport (with zero movement), so it may not then ‘fly’ somewhere to pick up troops later in the turn.


Last edited by Ginger on Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Thunderhawk Gunships how they work for
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:56 am 
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Dave wrote:
So you could activate or withdraw a unit onto a landed THawk, or even consolidate onto a different THawk, and all THawks would be able to disengage that turn.
i don’t think this interpretation is right Dave.
Consolidation prevents any transport from disengaging, irrespective of whether the assault originated from it or not.


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 Post subject: Re: Thunderhawk Gunships how they work for
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:22 pm 
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Ginger wrote:
Dave wrote:
So you could activate or withdraw a unit onto a landed THawk, or even consolidate onto a different THawk, and all THawks would be able to disengage that turn.
i don’t think this interpretation is right Dave.
Consolidation prevents any transport from disengaging, irrespective of whether the assault originated from it or not.

I can't see anything that would stop it (my emphasis):

Q: Can a unit that disembarked from an aircraft as part of an air assault use its
consolidation move to get back into the aircraft?
A: Yes, but the aircraft may not make a disengagement move.

The restriction is on consolidating back into the aircraft you arrived in. Consolidating onto a different aircraft isn't mentioned at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Thunderhawk Gunships how they work for
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:14 pm 
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Oh man Ginger, I'm having flashbacks to the eternal air assault Marines!! :D

However Dave's correct, the consolidation back into a flyer is the issue, not having a second flyer embarking a bunch of units and flying off. Actually that's kinda the current Marine meta right now.

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 Post subject: Re: Thunderhawk Gunships how they work for
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:12 am 
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Thanks for the feedback guys. I knew what was done roughly, I just needed to be able show the relevant rule to the guys I am trying to teach. Then explain why the rules were made to force you to use a second thunderhawk.

I think I can do that now.

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 Post subject: Re: Thunderhawk Gunships how they work for
PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:03 pm 
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I may be mis-remembering the master FAQ and various conversations around 2012. Part of the problem at the time was that this particular FAQ was put in 3.3 war engine assaults, which made it hard to find.

Either way, we agree you need a second transport to pick up the victors, and the “pickup” transport needs to be on the ground as little as possible to reduce the chances of being destroyed with troops onboard.


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 Post subject: Re: Thunderhawk Gunships how they work for
PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:10 pm 
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It was in 1.12.9, a great place to look for WE and AC/WE transportation related FAQs...

Quote:
Q: Can a unit that disembarked from a War Engine to take part in an Assault
use its consolidation move to get back into the War Engine?

A: Yes it can. However, if it does so then the War Engine loses its own Consolidation move (and War Engine Transports may not make a Disengagement move at the end of he turn) as it has to wait around while the troops climb back on board. Note that the War Engine may make a Consolidation Move (or a Disengagement move if it is an aircraft) if no troops embark upon it.


It's the same WE, as per that question, hence why you can consolidate onto a second aircraft. I find it easier to fly in after the assault and pick up the formation though. Consolidating onto a second aircraft would mean that it would have already been sitting on the ground next to a formation you wanted to assault. Not the best place for an aircraft.

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