Tactical Command
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War Engines and Bunkers questions.
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=31839		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Dan 1314 [ Wed Nov 09, 2016 7:45 pm ]
Post subject:  War Engines and Bunkers questions.
We have had some recent debate about War Engines in Assaults.
The rules provide:
3.3.2 Close Combat and Firefight Attacks
Instead of rolling a single hit dice for each war engine in an
assault, roll a number of hit dice equal to the war engine’s
starting damage capacity. You may choose to split these
between close combat rolls and firefight rolls as you see fit, but
close combat rolls will only hit enemy units in base contact,
while firefight rolls will only hit units within 15cm that are not
in base contact.

The questions this created were then.

If a knight paladin is assaulting a mixed formation in which the paladin is in base contact with a terminator (good save) and in fire fight range of a normal infantry unit (poor save), both being part of the same assaulted formation, how are hits allocated to the infantry?
We assumed: all CC hits go into the units in close combat (terminator), all fire fight into the units in fire fight (infantry).
But can this then be used as a way to bypass units with good saves, e.g by assaulting and bringing into base contact the unit with the good save, then putting all the assaults into fire fight?

Then next issue was with regards to extra attacks, a Paladin has a CC extra attack and a FF extra attack as well as two normal attacks (two wounds).
So if the paladin was in close combat as above, could the player choose to put the CC attack into the terminator, the FF into the other infantry unit, and the two normal attacks as fire fight into the infantry?
We found in our recent game, 5 paladins assaulted 5 lemon russ, and put them all into close combat as the LR are 6+. But would it have been wiser to put four into close combat, and that way be able to use the + extra attack small arms on the FF unit?

Finally, just in case we hadn’t confused ourselves enough we introduced some fortifications into the game, with their 3+ infantry save and debated rule 1.8.3:
1.8.3
The cover save can be used instead of their normal
armour save whenever they have to take an armour save.
The question here being what happens when a terminator is in a fortification and fails the 3+ save, is the reinforced armour save a 3 or a 4?

As always, thanks for your assistance and advice. We really don’t go out of our way to question and confuse the rules,…it just comes naturally.
Author:  kyussinchains [ Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: War Engines and Bunkers questions.
Yes the paladin can split its attacks to have the extra ff attacks hit stuff that isnt the terminator

In your example with the russes, remember the ff attacks from one paladin can hit russes in base contact with other paladins, the cc/ff stipulation refers only to units in cc with that specific war engine (or at least that's how its played in epicuk tournaments)

Finally if you use the bunker savesthen you cannot take the terminator armour saves at all, the bunker *replaces* the armour save
Author:  Dan 1314 [ Wed Nov 09, 2016 11:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: War Engines and Bunkers questions.
Thanks. A very thorough response. Really appreciate that.
Author:  Ginger [ Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: War Engines and Bunkers questions.
Agreed Kyuss.
The point here is that the Knights are WE, so can choose for each available attack whether it will be a CC or a FF attack, depending on whether there are unit(s) in B-B or not.

In this respect WE assaults work differently from normal assaults (where the CC and FF hits are pooled together ans allocated front to back, starting with those enemy units in B-B.)
Author:  IJW Wartrader [ Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: War Engines and Bunkers questions.
kyussinchains wrote:
Finally if you use the bunker savesthen you cannot take the terminator armour saves at all, the bunker *replaces* the armour save


It replaces the *first* save. The re-roll for Reinforced Armour would then be taken on the Terminators' 4+.

Q. Can a unit with reinforced armour re-roll a cover save against a non-macro-weapon hit? Q:

A. Yes, but only using its armour value.

So Terminators in a bunker would be getting a 3+ cover save followed by a 4+ armour save, assuming no Macro Weapon, Titan Killer, Lance or Ignore Cover hits...
Author:  kyussinchains [ Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: War Engines and Bunkers questions.
What he said ^^
Author:  mordoten [ Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: War Engines and Bunkers questions.
Grerat job guys! It's great that you take the time to clarify theese things! Very helpfull.
Author:  JimXII [ Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: War Engines and Bunkers questions.
Hi guys,
We play it the same in oz as kyuss and lwj wt.
Cheers
Jim
Author:  Doomkitten [ Thu Nov 10, 2016 8:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: War Engines and Bunkers questions.
IJW Wartrader wrote:
So Terminators in a bunker would be getting a 3+ cover save followed by a 4+ armour save, assuming no Macro Weapon, Titan Killer, Lance or Ignore Cover hits...


But just to be sure, if the example terminator was hit with an Ignore Cover weapon, he'd still get his 4+ save anf 4+ reinforced reroll, yes? Just because he has the option of claiming a cover save doesn't mean he /has/ to take it and thus get it negated by IC, yes?
Author:  IJW Wartrader [ Thu Nov 10, 2016 8:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: War Engines and Bunkers questions.
As far as I'm aware, yes. As you say, the cover save is optional.
Author:  Kyrt [ Sat Nov 12, 2016 1:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: War Engines and Bunkers questions.
Unless marines are allergic to trees. ;)
Author:  Doomkitten [ Sat Nov 12, 2016 2:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: War Engines and Bunkers questions.
Kyrt wrote:
Unless marines are allergic to trees. ;)


Well y'know what Space Wolves are like...
Author:  jimmyzimms [ Sat Nov 12, 2016 11:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: War Engines and Bunkers questions.
Damn Space Wolves with their guns and tanks and ... make out parties
Author:  Deb [ Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: War Engines and Bunkers questions.
Could you take the Terminators 3+ save, and 3+ RA save, bur still have the enemy shoot at -1 because the model is in cover?

I would expect this is like placing Space Marines in base contact with their Rhino transports to get the -1 to being hit, but not taking the lower cover save, rather their better 4+ save.

For example if the Enemy was using MW attacks, you could still get the Terminators 4+ save but with no re-rolls. CC attacks would negate the cover modifier of -1 to hit, however any FF MW attacks would still be at -1 because the Terminators are in cover, even if they can not use the Bunkers cover save roll to replace their Armour save, and would still not get the benefit of their RA due to the MW rules.
Author:  dptdexys [ Sun Nov 13, 2016 9:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: War Engines and Bunkers questions.
Deb wrote:
I would expect this is like placing Space Marines in base contact with their Rhino transports to get the -1 to being hit, but not taking the lower cover save, rather their better 4+ save.


There is no cover save for toucing an armoured vehicle, transported troops get the option of a 6+ cover save if they have to bail out.

1.8.4
Quote:
Armoured Vehicles:
Infantry count as being in cover and receive the -1 to hit modifier (but no cover save) if they
are touching an armoured vehicle or war engine, to represent their ability to take cover from enemy fire by
crouching behind the vehicle

1.7.5
Quote:
If the transport unit is destroyed, then any
transported units may make their normal armour save OR make a 6+ cover save
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