hi,

a question that arose in my mind when was thinking about synergies in list building.
(actaully 2 questions)


1. what happens if say a banelord titan is engaged in ff by a host of first strikers say warpspiders, suffers a critical and rampages out of 15cm of the spiders? will the banelord be unable to fight in that case and combat resolution is rolled off immidiatly? all supporting fire is also lost immidiatly?

2. what happens if the banelord is engageged vs. non first strikers and suffers a critical and rampages out of range? of course he would still fight back as this combats happens simultaniously and rampage away after that.
but what again would this mean for supporting fire, as it happens after that? would it also be lost?

thanks in advance

1) no banelord FF but support would still be resolved, both sides were un a position to attack

2) support would still be resolved

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Dave

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Squats 2019-10-17

thank you!

i assume this is covered in some q&a somewhere?

Wouldn't supporting fire opportunities also be lost, just like they are if casualty removal leaves nobody in range?

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The Wargaming Trader
NetEA Death Guard Army Champion

that was my original intention to my questions..

but i was fine with daves answer as long as it is covered somewhere. i had a look at the tournament pack but it seems not to be included in the faq there..

I'm pretty sure 1.12.6's 'In this case “directly involved” means belonging to the attacking or defending formation(s) and in a position to attack.' for supporting fire would stop it.

The FAQ appears to stop supporting fire for/against the Banelord rampaging off after First Strike shots, but allow supporting fire for/against the Banelord rampaging off after 'normal' damage:


Q: What does “directly involved” mean here?
A: In order to support with their firefight a unit must have a line of fire to at least one enemy unit that attacked with its close combat or firefight during the assault.

In the case of rampaging off after First Strike damage, the Banelord never attacked with CC or FF.


EDIT - I'd be happy to play it either way.

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The Wargaming Trader
NetEA Death Guard Army Champion

Yes it is common to measure to see who can attack at the beginning, including for supporting fire. Not really thought about first strike, not sure I'd play it any different TBH. They're still in a position to attack, even if they don't get to.

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That's explicitly not the case for supporting fire, though.

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The Wargaming Trader
NetEA Death Guard Army Champion

As the Banelord didn't attack in the FS example it couldn'tbe the target of support. The WS could though. Should have been more specific.

_________________
Dave

Blog

NetEA Tournament Pack Website

Squats 2019-10-17

I don't think "explicitly" is the right word at all... the rules are far from explicit about when exactly you determine which units are within 15cm of units that are directly involved. They do however say when you determine which units were directly involved:

From 1.12.4: Hits may only be allocated to units that were directly engaged in the combat (i.e., that belonged to the attacking or defending formation and which were within 15cms of the enemy after charge and counter-charge moves were completed).

From 1.12.6: In this case ‘directly involved’ means belonging to the attacking or position to attack. (sic)

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Yes, 'explicitly' was a bad choice of words, but 1.12.6 is pretty clear about eligibility being worked out after all normal casualties have been resolved and after you've checked to see if the assault stalled:

'Calling on support allows units from other formations to attack with their firefight value if they are within 15cm and have a line of fire to an enemy unit directly involved in the assault.'

My emphasis.

_________________
The Wargaming Trader
NetEA Death Guard Army Champion

Right but like I said, directly involved has a specific definition i.e. units that were in a position to attack. Whether that is meant as a reiteration of 1.12.4 (which specifically says this check is made after charge moves, and is decoupled from the moment you are making the attacks) or an overriding of it is unclear and open to debate IMO. It is curious language, "were in a position to attack" not "did attack". Combining the two sections would quite reasonably produce a reading like "in a position to attack after charge moves".

Hence I have seen it played multiple ways. One of which being the way the FAQ interprets it and that you are describing now, I.e. you assume that because supporting fire happens after hits are resolved, that this is also when the check about who can support is made. It's logical, but not "clear". The words you emphasise would equally support alternative readings.

Anyway this is splitting hairs, there is an FAQ and it is quite reasonable.

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Kyrt's trade list

ok, thanks. i'm a bit confused now, but i think i will work it out eventually, taking some greater care into reading your posts again, once i have time..