Tactical Command
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Shooting out of area terrain
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=30268		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  lord-bruno [ Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Shooting out of area terrain
Quote:
Units that are in terrain that is tall enough to at least partially obscure them from an attacker’s view receive a -1 to hit modifier when being shot at (see 1.9.5). The to hit modifier also applies if intervening terrain obscures the target partially from view.


So we have this situation:

Formation "A" moves an shoots at enemy formation "B", that is sitting in cover in some ruins.

All shots get the -1 because:
Quote:
Units that are in terrain that is tall enough to at least partially obscure them from an attacker’s view receive a -1 to hit modifier when being shot at (see 1.9.5).


Now comes the question.

Formation B shoots back at A, which is in the open. But:
Quote:
The to hit modifier also applies if intervening terrain obscures the target partially from view.


So all shots get the -1 because even though A is in the open, all lines of fire go through the ruins they are in.

Correct?? Basically: all formations sitting in area terrain shoot with the -1 when shooting out of that area terrain.
Author:  Dave [ Tue Sep 15, 2015 1:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting out of area terrain
You can certainly play it that way, the formation in the open just wouldn't get cover saves. If part of the shooting stand was out of cover though I wouldn't apply the -1.

I have yet to come across someone who plays it that way though. We usually reserve the -1 to-hit for intervening terrain for WEs, occasionally for AVs and rarely for infantry.
Author:  lord-bruno [ Wed Sep 16, 2015 11:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting out of area terrain
Dave wrote:
You can certainly play it that way, the formation in the open just wouldn't get cover saves. If part of the shooting stand was out of cover though I wouldn't apply the -1.



We were playing the other way before. But after re-reading the rules we changed, because they are pretty clear, unless like you say part of the stand is out of cover.

Dave wrote:

I have yet to come across someone who plays it that way though. We usually reserve the -1 to-hit for intervening terrain for WEs, occasionally for AVs and rarely for infantry.


Why the distinction if the rules don't make any??
Author:  Dave [ Wed Sep 16, 2015 12:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting out of area terrain
Mostly speed of play. Doing it for WEs feels necessary given their size in comparison to most of our terrain. With AVs it starts to get fiddly as they are that much smaller and more numerous.
Author:  mordoten [ Wed Sep 16, 2015 2:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting out of area terrain
Noone plays it with -1 for shooting out of terrain. I've never heard of it at any tournament.
Author:  Steve54 [ Wed Sep 16, 2015 3:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting out of area terrain
mordoten wrote:
Noone plays it with -1 for shooting out of terrain. I've never heard of it at any tournament.

Neither have I, and it's pretty nonsensical. Why would somebody in the edge of a wood or a building find it more difficult to aim a weapon?
Author:  Blip [ Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting out of area terrain
Not only in EA - in any war game - surely the assumption is that troops in terrain use it to their best advantage to conceal themselves and gain the best firing positions?

That said, given the scale EA is quite generous in giving a 10cm intervisibity. I can see an argument in forests etc to only allow troops on the edge to it or the shooting mod, but that could get very fiddly in a big game. Better keep it abstract imho. that c
Author:  Kyrt [ Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting out of area terrain
Notice the difference between "in terrain" and "intervening terrain", which the rules in your quote makes the distinction between. Terrain that a unit is in is not intervening - intervening means a piece of terrain that sits in the space between the shooting and defending formations. For example the hull down example in the rulebook (if I remember it correctly). If you read it the way you are, then there is no reason for the rules to make that distinction because "intervening" would cover everything by itself.
Author:  Alf O'Mega [ Wed Sep 16, 2015 10:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting out of area terrain
I think Kyrt's pretty much nailed it there to be honest...
Author:  Kyrt [ Thu Sep 17, 2015 11:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting out of area terrain
Actually rug I'm pretty sure that was me and I remember it very clearly, sorry to call you out on it but I'm glad you bring it up because it is a good example of the subtleties of how the rule works. You had it a bit backwards... It was my unit that your revenant was shooting at, with your other revenant and a hill (building?) in the way. Revenants can't be inside other revenants obviously and hence the relevant rule is the part about intervening terrain (one was effectively intervening terrain for the other).

What was at the root of the confusion was where you measure LoS from. You were concentrating only on the revenant, which it was perfectly possible to draw a line past. Somehow you inferred that I was saying you had to have all parts of the target visible to all parts of the shooting model (i.e. totally unobstructed). But that wasn't it at all. So long as you can draw a line from any part of your revenant past the other revenant and see all of the target model, there would be no modifier. (Some like to measure from specific points or the centre but I prefer to do it however my opponent likes when it comes up - or to put in your words, when they "suddenly remember" it's supposed to be played in whatever way works best for them at that moment...). So in actual fact your problem was simply that you had positioned it so that the sight lines past the revenant were partially obscured by the hill. Or to put another way, there was no line that could be drawn from the right hand side of my unit to any part of your unit - all lines that cleared the hill were blocked by the revenant, and vice versa. All you had to do was move slightly differently and it wouldn't be a problem but you went into "Ugh I have to explain the rules" mode so it took a little longer to get there. ;) I might not be the most competitive player or care about winning but IMO I am pretty good about parsing the rules and not playing for advantage so maybe next time you'll give me the benefit of the doubt :)

Again, sorry for the "erm, actually!" routine on here - it was no biggie on my part and in hindsight I probably should have just ignored it but I thought it was a simple mistake on your part in a clear cut situation and I always give people the chance to change their mind. (And yes that means ignoring the "touch move" rule from 1.7). My army was never going to win any of its games so I was pretty relaxed about everything really!

Speaking of ignored rules, I know what you mean about "communication failure", I notice it too and it's soooooo common for people to omit the action. It really doesn't bother me unless they actually fail to nominate the formation, but even then I tend to just mention it and let them get on with it. Usually it's obvious which one they intended to activate anyway, and declaring the action rarely has any consequence on the game except to reveal their failed plans. In some ways it'd be better if the rules said to roll before stating the action anyway.
Author:  lord-bruno [ Fri Sep 18, 2015 8:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting out of area terrain
mordoten wrote:
Noone plays it with -1 for shooting out of terrain. I've never heard of it at any tournament.


Neither did I, until I re-read the rules last weekend.

Steve54 wrote:
Neither have I, and it's pretty nonsensical. Why would somebody in the edge of a wood or a building find it more difficult to aim a weapon?


No edge here, pretty "inwards" (but less than 10cm).

Rug wrote:
At UK tournaments we generally agree during the warm-up that the terrain is abstract, uniformly dense and infinitely high (skimmers pop up to infinite height plus one!). It's generally played so only the target is considered for cover modifiers, not the shooters' location. We also tend to measure everything from the base rather than the model and gun barrels; some players suddenly remember these rules when it suit them, I always curse myself for not covering it in the warm up properly! Ah!!! And forget the "communication failure" rule!!


We use the UK lists here, so we are going to use those house rules too :D But in the case of infantry, we measure from any of the models on the stand, instead of just the base (and our WE and vehicles have no bases so from the models too).
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