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How does your "5 minute warm up" normally go?
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29297		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Stormwind [ Sun Mar 15, 2015 11:24 pm ]
Post subject:  How does your "5 minute warm up" normally go?
I was just looking through the latest NetEA rulebook and was struck by the idea of the 5 minute warmup and how it sought to eliminate problems that can blight games sometimes.

I wondered - what are the most common agreements where YOU live?

(In your "local meta" as horrible WH40k people say, I suppose.)

=-P
Author:  kyussinchains [ Sun Mar 15, 2015 11:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How does your "5 minute warm up" normally go?
I play in the UK and regularly in EpicUK tournaments so there are a few things that are assumed as part of that (area terrain, no seeing over terrain)

what are we counting terrain as (are they buildings or ruins? is the whole base ruins or buildings?)

are we measuring model to model or base to base?

possibly are we allowing scout screens to block air assaults (as written this should be a no, but some don't allow it.... the debate has raged over this for ages and ages...)
Author:  Stormwind [ Mon Mar 16, 2015 12:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How does your "5 minute warm up" normally go?
OK, good to know, I think it will be a while before air assaults are a point of conention for my group. =D
Author:  Onyx [ Mon Mar 16, 2015 12:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How does your "5 minute warm up" normally go?
From the NetEA FAQ:
Quote:
6.1.3 The Five Minute Warm Up
Q: Is there a complete list of what to cover in the five minute warm up?
A:
    Should you dice for each ability used at the start of the turn?
    Are transported units considered to be in specific transporting units of their formation?
    When disembarking, are transported units placed completely within 5cm of the transport unit or just so one part of the transported unit is within 5cm of the transport unit?
    When does a unit count as being in cover?
    How many units can claim cover from a armoured vehicle, war engine, or terrain feature?
    Does the charging formation need to get within 15cm of the original target or can it get within 15cm of any intermingled formation?
    How are attacks with special abilities like ignore cover and lance allocated in an assault?
    Is it possible to air assault into a formation which is completely covered by the zone of control of another formation?
    Where should measurements for capturing/contesting an objective be made from?
    What house rules do you normally play with?
    Are you using the counts as rule?
    What is your army capable of (units, weapons and special rules)?

I'm not sure this is a complete guide but it certainly helps.
Author:  kadeton [ Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How does your "5 minute warm up" normally go?
NetEA FAQ 6.1.3 wrote:
  • Are transported units considered to be in specific transporting units of their formation?
  • When disembarking, are transported units placed completely within 5cm of the transport unit or just so one part of the transported unit is within 5cm of the transport unit?
  • Is it possible to air assault into a formation which is completely covered by the zone of control of another formation?

I kind of wish that these questions in particular could have mandated, consistent rules rather than having to decide with your opponent - one set of answers results in a completely different game to another set if you happen to be running a mix of air and ground transports. Having no idea of how your army is going to function from one game to the next can be... difficult.
Author:  Onyx [ Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How does your "5 minute warm up" normally go?
kadeton wrote:
NetEA FAQ 6.1.3 wrote:
  • Are transported units considered to be in specific transporting units of their formation?
  • When disembarking, are transported units placed completely within 5cm of the transport unit or just so one part of the transported unit is within 5cm of the transport unit?
  • Is it possible to air assault into a formation which is completely covered by the zone of control of another formation?

I kind of wish that these questions in particular could have mandated, consistent rules rather than having to decide with your opponent - one set of answers results in a completely different game to another set if you happen to be running a mix of air and ground transports. Having no idea of how your army is going to function from one game to the next can be... difficult.

I agree but trying to get a unified decision is even more ... difficult ::) ;) .
Best you can do is look at your local meta and make educated choices.

For example, you're in Perth so I would say the answers to these 3 questions would be:
*Yes
*just so one part of the transported unit is within 5cm of the transport unit
*Yes

Remember that I run some of the local Epic events and these would be the standard rules in use at these events (and have been for several years now).

I do hope this thread will not dissolve into another rules debate about things that are not going to change in different parts of the world. We all have the same rules book but have read it differently. That is why the 5 min discussion is so important (but more so when you play outside your local scene).
Author:  kadeton [ Thu Mar 19, 2015 9:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How does your "5 minute warm up" normally go?
Onyx wrote:
I agree but trying to get a unified decision is even more ... difficult ::) ;) .
Best you can do is look at your local meta and make educated choices.

That's a bit confusing to me, to be honest - given there are lots of other rules clarifications, why do these ones particularly stand out as being so dramatically contentious that the council can't decide?

Onyx wrote:
For example, you're in Perth so I would say the answers to these 3 questions would be:
*Yes
*just so one part of the transported unit is within 5cm of the transport unit
*Yes

Remember that I run some of the local Epic events and these would be the standard rules in use at these events (and have been for several years now).

Interesting... I've had the first two questions go the exact opposite way in several of the games I've played so far, though that hasn't been in tournaments. At the only proper tournament I've attended, I was too new to the game to even pick up on the subtleties of transport rules, though I assume it was played as you describe.

What method do you use to keep track of which unit is in which transport? That seems like a huge amount of bookkeeping when you're dealing with several Ork Warbands mounted in a variety of wagons, for example - easily 40+ units in 20+ transports.

Onyx wrote:
I do hope this thread will not dissolve into another rules debate about things that are not going to change in different parts of the world. We all have the same rules book but have read it differently. That is why the 5 min discussion is so important (but more so when you play outside your local scene).

Sorry, not trying to derail or stir up trouble. On the one hand, it's surprising to me that these debates haven't settled down to a broad consensus over the last decade, but on the other, they make such an enormous difference to the transport game that I can see why people would get very attached to their particular interpretation.
Author:  kyussinchains [ Thu Mar 19, 2015 9:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How does your "5 minute warm up" normally go?
I agree with Onyx on his interpretation of all 3 questions, I assumed that all members of the rules committee were in broad agreement on this?
Author:  IJW Wartrader [ Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How does your "5 minute warm up" normally go?
Even at Counterattack in Bath last month, two out of three opponents said that they play with the whole of the disembarking unit having to be within 5cm. Given the large amount of BPs in my list, I suggested they try playing it the other way...
Author:  Ginger [ Thu Mar 19, 2015 11:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How does your "5 minute warm up" normally go?
I agree with the position outlined above

Basically E:A is a *GAME* and the golden rule here is to work out the 'difficult' interpretations beforehand in the "5min warmup" so that you can settle down to have *FUN*. 'Play nicely', use dice if you have to, and for preference keep the community informed of the choice and the results.
(please excuse the emphasis).

There are a number of rules and situations that can be contentious.
    Take hills for example;
    • Some people define hills as being 'infinitely high' with no profile as a consequence.
    • Others define hills as they appear on the table, complete with ridge lines etc.

    Although the first definition is arguably simpler, by definition a unit that is partially on one side of a hill can see and shoot an enemy that is 'hiding' in the shadow of the other side of the hill. The second definition would prevent the above position, but might also allow a titan to shoot across the edge of the hill because it can 'see over' the edge.

That said, some interpretations have a huge impact on the game; eg. the question of air assaults into enemy ZoC, or enemy interaction with wraithgates. Where different interpretations exist I personally advocate adopting the one that best promotes game-play by use of appropriate strategies and tactics (though that can still result in divergent views . . . ;) ).

Note,
Some interpretations may well be decided in advance by Tournament Organisers (as Onyx inferred above). Also, where an interpretation is found to be extreme and flawed, it may end up being discouraged or banned, like the concept of the "eternal air assault" (where victorious units consolidate back onto their air transport to repeat the air assault in the following turn).
Author:  Stormwind [ Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How does your "5 minute warm up" normally go?
The thing about hills is - little models fall down hills. A LOT.

So I have very shallow/short hills from S&A scenics, which units don't have so much of a problem with, normally.

The way we play them in Warmaster has been no trouble so far, but I wonder if we'll have problems with Titans as they are tall enough to "see over".

I would suggest that there is a crest of a hill and behind it you are safe. All forests and hills will block line of sight for war machines, I feel.
Author:  IJW Wartrader [ Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How does your "5 minute warm up" normally go?
Locally we've played with area terrain being as high as the highest element in it - so tall war engines or units in high positions can see over lower intervening terrain anyway. Infinitely tall low hills and areas of scrub destroys my suspension of disbelief too much. :(
Author:  Stormwind [ Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How does your "5 minute warm up" normally go?
I understand that.

All the stuff I have is built for compromise between how it looks - and how easy it is to use on the battlefield without argument! I know i Need to get some of the wasteland buildings to block LOS but until then it's going to be a lot of forests and hills. =-P
Author:  Dave [ Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How does your "5 minute warm up" normally go?
kadeton wrote:
Onyx wrote:
I agree but trying to get a unified decision is even more ... difficult ::) ;) .
Best you can do is look at your local meta and make educated choices.

That's a bit confusing to me, to be honest - given there are lots of other rules clarifications, why do these ones particularly stand out as being so dramatically contentious that the council can't decide?


I can see two things happening if we did: it would just push any remaining epic groups further apart, or people would just ignore it and continue playing how they have. Epic's long past the point where we had a central official source for the rules. I'd rather see the community preserved than try to cram any one interpretation down someone's throat.

Bullet one has been that way since the beginning.

Bullet two was never officially answered (but we do make Onyx play completely within when he's visiting us :P).

Bullet three was a hot topic, as it was never answered by GW so we 5-minuted it.

In the end, I honestly don't think ot matters. The number of times people from different metas get together to play is chump change compared to the games played within the same meta.
Author:  Onyx [ Thu Mar 19, 2015 1:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How does your "5 minute warm up" normally go?
Onyx wrote:
I do hope this thread will not dissolve into another rules debate about things that are not going to change in different parts of the world. We all have the same rules book but have read it differently. That is why the 5 min discussion is so important (but more so when you play outside your local scene).

Just sayin... 8)
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