Tactical Command :: View topic - rule clarifications

Allocate and make save for regular hits. Then allocate and make saves for lance/macros, starting with the closest surviving enemy unit. Finally, allocate and make saves for TKs, again starting at the closest surviving unit.

You counter-charge the closest enemy unit, regardless of what formation it belongs to. This is evaluated on a unit-by-unit basis.

Q: If one of my formations is charged in an Assault do I counter charge only units from the assaulting formation or do I counter charge the nearest enemy unit even if it is in a supporting formation that is not part of the Assault?
A: A counter charging unit may engage enemy units from supporting formations, as long as they were the closest enemy units.

Third paragraph of 1.12.4 Counter Charges

Quote:

A unit must use their counter charge move to move directly
towards the closest enemy unit. It may move into base contact
if close enough, and as long as the enemy is not already in
contact with two defending units. Units can choose not to
counter charge if they wish, but if they do counter charge they
must head towards the nearest enemy.

That rule does not specify which formation the closest unit belongs to.

1.12.4 Counter Charges
An assault represents a brutal short-range battle involving
movement, shooting and close combat. Although the assaulting
formation will have initiated the combat, the defending
formation will have time to react to the enemy assault and
make limited moves of their own. To represent this, units from
the defending formation involved in the assault are allowed to
make a special move called a counter charge.
Defending units that are not already in base contact with an
enemy unit are allowed to counter charge. Units with a speed
of 30cm or more may make a counter charge move of 10cm.
Units with a speed of 25cm or less may make a counter charge
move of 5cm. Counter charges happen after the engaging
formation has finished moving and any overwatch shots have
been taken, but before the combat is resolved. All the normal
charge move rules apply, and defending formations must still
be in a legal formation after the counter charge moves have
been made (ie, all units must be within 5cm of another unit
from their formation). Embarked units may dismount.
A unit must use their counter charge move to move directly
towards the closest enemy unit. It may move into base contact
if close enough, and as long as the enemy is not already in
contact with two defending units. Units can choose not to
counter charge if they wish, but if they do counter charge they
must head towards the nearest enemy.

Counter charging units are allowed to counter charge enemy
units from any enemy formation, not just the one they were
assaulted by. Any enemy formations that are contacted by
counter charging units are drawn into the assault, and will fight
just as if they had made the assault themselves. Treat them and
the original attacking formation as a single formation for all
rules purposes for the duration of the assault.
A 2D6 roll is used to resolve a combined assault. If the attacker
loses then each formation is broken. If the attacker wins then
each formation receives a number of Blast markers equal to the
number of units the formation lost in the assault.

Rule clarifications:
Also if that's true which kinda makes sence are my two independant units that were more than 10cm apart counted as intermingled for the combat? Would I count the blast markers for.combat resolution from both units or just the assaulting one?

Any enemy formations that are contacted by
counter charging units are drawn into the assault, and will fight
just as if they had made the assault themselves. Treat them and
the original attacking formation as a single formation for all
rules purposes for the duration of the assault.
A 2D6 roll is used to resolve a combined assault. If the attacker
loses then each formation is broken. If the attacker wins then
each formation receives a number of Blast markers equal to the
number of units the formation lost in the assault.

Author:	atension [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:21 am ]
Post subject:	rule clarifications
Rule clarifications: 1. An opponent with a very large (IG) and spreadout unit is charged by a formation. The rule for counter charge says they move 5cm towards to closest enemy unit. Last game I played I had another unit that was close to one side was previously.beaten in combat and broken but did not move as it was fearless. Can my opponent cointer charge units from the other unit when they are the closer target to part of the IG horde rather than countering toward the assaulting unit. Also if that's true which kinda makes sence are my two independant units that were more than 10cm apart counted as intermingled for the combat? Would I count the blast markers for.combat resolution from both units or just the assaulting one? 2. In what order are lance and regular hits allocated to a war engine with shields. Attackers roll order or defender alllocated?

Author:	Dave [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:52 am ]
Post subject:	Re: rule clarifications
You counter-charge the closest enemy unit, regardless of what formation it belongs to. This is evaluated on a unit-by-unit basis. If your counter-charge brings you into base-to-base with an enemy unit from another formation it is drawn in to the combat. It does not get to counter-charge but rolls CC and FF at the same time as the original formation. Intermingling is something different. You can declare enemy formations intermingled if they are within 5cm of each other. Regardless of intermingling or drawn in, you total the blast markers for all of your formations when resolving the assault. Allocate and make save for regular hits. Then allocate and make saves for lance/macros, starting with the closest surviving enemy unit. Finally, allocate and make saves for TKs, again starting at the closest surviving unit.

Author:	IJW Wartrader [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:57 am ]
Post subject:	Re: rule clarifications
Dave wrote: Allocate and make save for regular hits. Then allocate and make saves for lance/macros, starting with the closest surviving enemy unit. Finally, allocate and make saves for TKs, again starting at the closest surviving unit. I'm probably being a bit slow, but where is this in the FAQ? As far as I'm aware there are only two rounds of hit allocation - one for non-MW hits and a second for MW hits including TK hits.

Author:	Dave [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:14 am ]
Post subject:	Re: rule clarifications
Ya, my bad. TK shots are nearly exclusively firepower MWx+. They'd be at the same time RAW. We generally extrapolate it so that they cine after MWs as it might make a difference (say a Titan still has voids left).

Author:	Kyrt [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:25 am ]
Post subject:	Re: rule clarifications
Technically there is no order defined for lance hits (or ignore cover, or disrupt). Only macro (including TK) are separated out, everything else is just lumped in together with normal hits and is up to the defender. However, there is something of an "unofficial consensus" that the defender should allocate in such a way as to not waste the special abilities of the hits if possible (so lance on RA, ignore cover on units in cover etc). But it's actually quite hard to come up with a solid rule that covers all situations. In fact maybe "consensus" is too strong a word, it's more just a "common agreement not to be beardy" between friends. So I'm afraid you'll have to discuss it with you opponent in the five minute warm up, and play what seems right when it comes up. The MW and TK difference only rarely matters - remember the attacker can pick out titans as targets so can always fire the TK against them if they want. It can make a difference for void shields, ie it's better to use TK on shields then MW on reinforced armour. But it is very situational, because sometimes you want the opposite - if there are multiple war engines in the formation. For example when firing on 2 DC3 warhounds you could allocate 2 MW hits and then a TK(D6) hit on a DC3 war engine, and nothing on the second. This isn't quite as bad though, because the defender can't actually know in advance if this is really the "best" order to use - for example, most war engines have RA and so you can't know in advance that the MW hits will actually damage, and you only roll for TK damage at the moment it is allocated.

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Author:	atension [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:02 am ]
Post subject:	Re: rule clarifications
Thanks for the explanations, we played the first situation correctly then. The second it didn't turn out to matter as the reinforced roll failed anyways but I'll be sure to explain the beardy factor before out next match.

Author:	Borka [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: rule clarifications
Dave wrote: You counter-charge the closest enemy unit, regardless of what formation it belongs to. This is evaluated on a unit-by-unit basis. I had a game recently were i said this. I tried to find the exact text in the rulebook but couldn't. Do you have a reference were it says the move has to be towards the closest enemy regardless of formation?

Author:	Dave [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: rule clarifications
1.12.4: A unit must use their counter charge move to move directly towards the closest enemy unit. The new FAQ will have a an entry for this.

Author:	Borka [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: rule clarifications
Yeah I read that, but my opponent thought it meant the closest unit from the formation being assaulted. So the text is not really clear. Sound like a good plan to add a FAQ about it.

Author:	dptdexys [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: rule clarifications
Do you mean an FAQ like this one in the Master FAQ. Quote: Q: If one of my formations is charged in an Assault do I counter charge only units from the assaulting formation or do I counter charge the nearest enemy unit even if it is in a supporting formation that is not part of the Assault? A: A counter charging unit may engage enemy units from supporting formations, as long as they were the closest enemy units.

Author:	dptdexys [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: rule clarifications
Hena wrote: Third paragraph of 1.12.4 Counter Charges Quote: A unit must use their counter charge move to move directly towards the closest enemy unit. It may move into base contact if close enough, and as long as the enemy is not already in contact with two defending units. Units can choose not to counter charge if they wish, but if they do counter charge they must head towards the nearest enemy. That rule does not specify which formation the closest unit belongs to. If you take the whole rule it does state you are allowed to counter charge other formations. Quote: 1.12.4 Counter Charges An assault represents a brutal short-range battle involving movement, shooting and close combat. Although the assaulting formation will have initiated the combat, the defending formation will have time to react to the enemy assault and make limited moves of their own. To represent this, units from the defending formation involved in the assault are allowed to make a special move called a counter charge. Defending units that are not already in base contact with an enemy unit are allowed to counter charge. Units with a speed of 30cm or more may make a counter charge move of 10cm. Units with a speed of 25cm or less may make a counter charge move of 5cm. Counter charges happen after the engaging formation has finished moving and any overwatch shots have been taken, but before the combat is resolved. All the normal charge move rules apply, and defending formations must still be in a legal formation after the counter charge moves have been made (ie, all units must be within 5cm of another unit from their formation). Embarked units may dismount. A unit must use their counter charge move to move directly towards the closest enemy unit. It may move into base contact if close enough, and as long as the enemy is not already in contact with two defending units. Units can choose not to counter charge if they wish, but if they do counter charge they must head towards the nearest enemy. Counter charging units are allowed to counter charge enemy units from any enemy formation, not just the one they were assaulted by. Any enemy formations that are contacted by counter charging units are drawn into the assault, and will fight just as if they had made the assault themselves. Treat them and the original attacking formation as a single formation for all rules purposes for the duration of the assault. A 2D6 roll is used to resolve a combined assault. If the attacker loses then each formation is broken. If the attacker wins then each formation receives a number of Blast markers equal to the number of units the formation lost in the assault. So in summary if you counter charge you Have to counter charge the nearest enemy unit which is allowed to be from a different formation to the one making the engage action.

Author:	dptdexys [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: rule clarifications
atension wrote: Rule clarifications: Also if that's true which kinda makes sence are my two independant units that were more than 10cm apart counted as intermingled for the combat? Would I count the blast markers for.combat resolution from both units or just the assaulting one? From the rules 1.12.4 Quote: Any enemy formations that are contacted by counter charging units are drawn into the assault, and will fight just as if they had made the assault themselves. Treat them and the original attacking formation as a single formation for all rules purposes for the duration of the assault. A 2D6 roll is used to resolve a combined assault. If the attacker loses then each formation is broken. If the attacker wins then each formation receives a number of Blast markers equal to the number of units the formation lost in the assault. All formations dragged in and the original engaging formation count as 1 formation and include all BM's from all the formations. A badly positioned support formation can soon turn a good assault into a bad one.

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