Tactical Command
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Thunderhawk for more than 1 formation
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=27236		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  mspaetauf [ Mon Apr 14, 2014 6:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Thunderhawk for more than 1 formation
Hi!

recently I played against Marines, and my opponent had 1 Thunderhawk with the idea of bringing in more than one unit, the THawk being a war engine and leaving the table again.

I am pretty sure you can't do that, since every formation has to have a means to enter the table assigned to it (and not the same one), but I couldn't find the rule section.

So my question is can someone point me in the right direction?

cheers,
Markus
Author:  Dave [ Mon Apr 14, 2014 6:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thunderhawk for more than 1 formation
In section 6 under setting up, you have to have every formation on board, in reserve, or transporting in something that's entering via reserve.

So a THawk can land and two assault formations can get out. But a THawk can't land, let a tac get out, fly off and come in the next turn with another tac.
Author:  Ginger [ Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thunderhawk for more than 1 formation
As Dave Says, all "reserves" held off-table have to have a means to enter the table - Teleporting; in a Spacecraft (Planetfall / drop pod); or in an air transport (THawk / Landing craft).

However, there is a tactic that can be used. The player can deploy some Assault Marines on the table and after the THawk has landed and disembarked its troops, the Assault Marines can perform a march move and embark onto the THawk. The THawk then disengages and is ready for an assault in turn #2.
Author:  kyussinchains [ Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Thunderhawk for more than 1 formation
Actually as far as I can tell that's incorrect, troops do not embark or disembark aircraft, that is done by the aircraft itself,

from 4.2.5 transporting ground units:

After the aircraft has landed, any units being transported may disembark and are placed within 5cms of the transport aircraft (skimmers and units with jump packs can be placed within 15cms, to represent them dropping from the aircraft as it comes in to land). Alternatively, the aircraft may pick up any friendly units within 5cms, assuming they will fit on board of course.

Emphasis mine

Aircraft are the units which do the embarking or disembarking, you are not permitted to land a transport craft, then move units onboard from a different formation, the aircraft basically 'hoovers up' units within 5cm, and you're certainly not permitted to embark and disembark from the same aircraft in a turn
Author:  mspaetauf [ Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Thunderhawk for more than 1 formation
@ topic: thanks for answers, I was pretty sure it cannot be done, but couldn't find the passage in the book. Now that's sorted :)

Although I think it's an interesting idea for a marines list.

@ Picking up stuff:

I think the way this is meant is that you can

either use the Thunderhawks activation to pick a unit up, even if the unit in question had already been activated this turn, but you have to land within 5 cm of EACH base of the unit

or use one units activation to move into the Thunderhawk which is already on the table (i.e. march action to move across the board and enter the WE).

in the first case you cannot ferry in units, but in the second case you can. For the first case you could land and shoot stuff, pick units up and exit again.

I really need to play 2 Thunderhawks with Space Marines in the future :D
Author:  Ginger [ Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Thunderhawk for more than 1 formation
Hi Kyuss.
4.2.5 governs the air-transport aspects, but it is also a WE and while it is on the ground 3.1.3 can be used for troops to embark onto a WE.
Author:  Kyrt [ Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Thunderhawk for more than 1 formation
You can't both disembark units and then embark nearby units together as part of the aircraft's own action. However, once landed the thunderhawk is a ground unit, and as a transport war engine it should be able to embark troops that move into base contact with it:
4.2.5 wrote:
Once landed, the aircraft is treated in all ways as a ground unit with a speed of 0


Further clarified by:

Official FAQ wrote:
Q: Can a unit that disembarked from a War Engine to take part in an Assault use its consolidation move to get back into the War Engine?
A: Yes it can. However, if it does so then the War Engine loses its own Consolidation move (and War Engine Transports may not make a Disengagement move at the end of the turn) as it has to wait around while the troops climb back on board. Note that the War Engine may make a Consolidation move (or a Disengagement move if it is an aircraft) if no troops embark upon it.


So, the rulebook states that the landed aircraft becomes a regular war engine transport ground unit. The FAQ is about such war engines generally, but also refers to aircraft disengagement moves specifically. The implication is that you can move into the war engine because it is a ground unit, but if you disembark and embark in the same turn then you can't disengage until the following turn. Unfortunately the FAQ is talking about consolidation moves in assault so it is not crystal clear, but it seems to follow.
Author:  kyussinchains [ Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Thunderhawk for more than 1 formation
so you can load troops on, but not fly off that turn.... that much is pretty clear
Author:  mspaetauf [ Tue Apr 15, 2014 11:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Thunderhawk for more than 1 formation
only if you also embarked troops. If you only load troops, you can leave again. That's how I read it.
Author:  Ginger [ Tue Apr 15, 2014 11:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Thunderhawk for more than 1 formation
Only *consolidation* prevents the WE air transport from disengaging, because this is deemed to take place in the end phase and thus replaces disengagement. (see FAQ 1.12.9) This was introduced shortly after E:A was produced to prevent the "eternal air assault" (where the victorious troops consolidate back into to the transport to repeat the assault turn after turn).

It is possible to achieve repeated assaults with one infantry formation using two transports (the 2nd embarking troops after the assault is complete), or by using a single air-transport and two infantry formations (as I described above). Note - in practice it is quite hard to achieve either form of repeated assault because of the constraint that this take place over separate activations.

Equally broken formation(s) may make a withdrawal move back into the air-transport, though they may not assault other enemy until they rally, and may only disembark as part of a subsequent 'move' made by the transport.
Author:  Kyrt [ Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thunderhawk for more than 1 formation
I think consolidation pretty clearly is NOT deemed to happen in the end phase (since a formation can be assaulted, win, consolidate and then take your own action later in the same turn). The explanation in the FAQ is rather less specific, it just says that the aircraft has to wait around whilst troops embark. It is just a vague justification of the rule, not an explanation of how the rule works. Therefore I don't think we should read too much into it, but I guess the gist of it is that the aircraft doesn't have time to do both.

For me it's quite clear that troops are allowed to embark on a landed war engine aircraft as part of their own action. The open issue then is, should the answer in FAQ about consolidation be extrapolated to cover all forms of moving onto the aircraft (i.e. in their own action, or a consolidation move from a formation that didn't start inside the aircraft). The crux of it is: what is it that stops the aircraft being able to disengage? Is it:
a) only a consolidation move from a formation that started the same assault inside the aircraft. [FAQ as written]
b) any consolidation move from a formation that was inside the aircraft at some earlier point in the turn. [e.g. air assault, win, consolidate, get assaulted, win, consolidate]
c) any consolidation move into the aircraft, even if the aircraft landed empty
d) any move of any kind into the aircraft, even if the aircraft landed empty
e) any combination of disembarking and embarking in the same turn
Author:  Ginger [ Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thunderhawk for more than 1 formation
I agree the FAQ should be made tighter.
I have always played that the the answer to the above question is (c) that *any* consolidation move made into the transport prevents it from disengaging, irrespective of whether the troops started inside or not.
Note, Dave asked this same question in 2010 and stated that because of the wording, he felt the answer was b) that the restriction only applied to troops that had previously disembarked from the transport. (see viewtopic.php?p=343988#p343988)

However, the main question being raised is whether embarking after any other movement also prevents the transport from disengaging. With respect, this subject has been discussed many times in the various forums including this one, and the discussions have all held the same conclusions that I explained above.
Author:  Kyrt [ Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thunderhawk for more than 1 formation
Ginger wrote:
I agree the FAQ should be made tighter.
I have always played that the the answer to the above question is (c) that *any* consolidation move made into the transport prevents it from disengaging, irrespective of whether the troops started inside or not.
Note, Dave asked this same question in 2010 and stated that because of the wording, he felt the answer was b) that the restriction only applied to troops that had previously disembarked from the transport. (see viewtopic.php?p=343988#p343988)

However, the main question being raised is whether embarking after any other movement also prevents the transport from disengaging. With respect, this subject has been discussed many times in the various forums including this one, and the discussions have all held the same conclusions that I explained above.

What conclusions do you refer to? You say (c), but the thread you quote disagrees with that.

Do you have a link for a topic concluding on what happens for other types of movement?
Author:  Ginger [ Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thunderhawk for more than 1 formation
So here are a few other threads where the same views are expressed :-

Jan 2012
http://www.taccmd.tacticalwargames.net/ ... solidation

Aug 2010
http://www.taccmd.tacticalwargames.net/ ... on#p363520
Author:  dptdexys [ Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thunderhawk for more than 1 formation
mspaetauf wrote:
Hi!

recently I played against Marines, and my opponent had 1 Thunderhawk with the idea of bringing in more than one unit, the THawk being a war engine and leaving the table again.

I am pretty sure you can't do that, since every formation has to have a means to enter the table assigned to it (and not the same one), but I couldn't find the rule section.

So my question is can someone point me in the right direction?

cheers,
Markus

Highlighted the relevant part
Quote:
4.2.5 Transporting Ground Units
Aircraft with a transport capacity are known as transport
aircraft and are allowed to pick up and drop off ground units.
Troops being transported are kept off-board embarked on the
transport aircraft until it is deployed. Any units that are picked
up and transported off the table may later return to play in the
same transport aircraft.
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