Tactical Command :: View topic - Suppression and flak

Q: If a formation has Blast markers and wants to fire its AA weapon(s) at an enemy air formation, but the only unit that has the range or the LOF to that enemy is the AA unit, is the AA unit suppressed?

A: All ground units are considered to have an LoF to air units so all the units in the formation, not just the AA unit, would be considered to have an LoF to the aircraft formation. If the AA unit is the only unit in the formation that is in range of the aircraft then it would be suppressed. If other units in the formation were in range then they could be considered valid Suppression targets, not just the AA unit. Note that a unit can be suppressed when firing at an aircraft even if it has no AA attack value.

Q: Due to the extremely flexible nature of the aircraft rules it is possible for an aircraft to end its move in the middle of an enemy formation, in order to ensure that a specific target is allocated hits before other models. Is this legal?

A: This tactic is sometimes referred to as ‘Aircraft Sniping’ and although not against the letter of the rules it is against their intent. Because of this it’s a tactic that players should avoid if they want to play the game in the right spirit. Instead of a detailed (and rather complex) rule to get round the problem, we recommend that if an aircraft ends its move within an enemy formation then any fire is treated as coming from the direction of approach rather than its final position.

Remember that the suppression direction is checked from the point where the aircraft stops moving.

Q: Suppression is applied from the rear of the formation relative to the A/C (the furthest unit from the aircraft) irrespective of whether that unit has AA capability or not, is that right?

A: Correct, as long as they have range and LOF.

Well there's this FAQ entry:

4.2.4 Flak Attacks
AA weapons are designed to fire defensively against an attacking enemy aircraft, and may therefore shoot immediately after an enemy aircraft formation makes an approach move but before it makes its attack.

Ground units that are armed with AA weapons can shoot at enemy aircraft as they move past them. To represent this, they may shoot at an aircraft formation that moved within their weapon range during their approach or disengagement move, even if the aircraft is no longer within weapon range when the attack is made.
My emphasis

Ground units that are armed with AA weapons can shoot at enemy aircraft as they move past them.To represent this, they may shoot at an aircraft formation that moved within their weapon range during their approach or disengagement move, even if the aircraft is no longer within weapon range when the attack is made.
My emphasis

Author:	Blip [ Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:20 am ]
Post subject:	Suppression and flak
Silly question, but it keeps coming up with opponents : Can a flak unit fire at A/C even if it has blast markers (not broken) ? I guess it can because otherwise it would be really easy to suppress AA fire (as there is generally only 1-2 per formation) but just wanted clarification.

Author:	Onyx [ Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:27 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Suppression and flak
Here's the relevant FAQ: Quote: Q: If a formation has Blast markers and wants to fire its AA weapon(s) at an enemy air formation, but the only unit that has the range or the LOF to that enemy is the AA unit, is the AA unit suppressed? A: All ground units are considered to have an LoF to air units so all the units in the formation, not just the AA unit, would be considered to have an LoF to the aircraft formation. If the AA unit is the only unit in the formation that is in range of the aircraft then it would be suppressed. If other units in the formation were in range then they could be considered valid Suppression targets, not just the AA unit. Note that a unit can be suppressed when firing at an aircraft even if it has no AA attack value. Section 4.2.4 of the NetEA Tournament Pack. That should help

Author:	Blip [ Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:32 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Suppression and flak
Great, thanks. My opponent's firestorms just got less scary

Author:	Onyx [ Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:47 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Suppression and flak
Again, here's another relevant FAQ: Quote: Q: Due to the extremely flexible nature of the aircraft rules it is possible for an aircraft to end its move in the middle of an enemy formation, in order to ensure that a specific target is allocated hits before other models. Is this legal? A: This tactic is sometimes referred to as ‘Aircraft Sniping’ and although not against the letter of the rules it is against their intent. Because of this it’s a tactic that players should avoid if they want to play the game in the right spirit. Instead of a detailed (and rather complex) rule to get round the problem, we recommend that if an aircraft ends its move within an enemy formation then any fire is treated as coming from the direction of approach rather than its final position.

Author:	Ulrik [ Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:25 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Suppression and flak
Hena wrote: Remember that the suppression direction is checked from the point where the aircraft stops moving. Source for that? The only thing I find in the rules is that flak units that are out of range are allowed to fire as long as the aircraft was within range at some point during the approach move. Technically the rules agree with this, as they only permit the unit to fire without being in range, but it's also easy to argue that the shots should be counted as if they were made at some point during the approach when the aircraft was actually in range.

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Author:	Onyx [ Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:31 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Suppression and flak
Well there's this FAQ entry: FAQ wrote: Q: Suppression is applied from the rear of the formation relative to the A/C (the furthest unit from the aircraft) irrespective of whether that unit has AA capability or not, is that right? A: Correct, as long as they have range and LOF.

Author:	Ulrik [ Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:58 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Suppression and flak
Onyx wrote: Well there's this FAQ entry: Doesn't really apply. Just confirms that suppression applies "from the rear", without really saying much about what "the rear" is. If this had been Warmachine I'd have no doubt that you check for suppression for where the aircraft ends its move, but this is a GW game. If the aircrafts position is only checked at the end of the move, that means that if it passes directly over a formation with flak units the flak would be suppressed if they were at the "front" (where the aircraft is coming towards the formation) and not at the "back" (when the aircraft is moving away from the formation). A "common sense" approach would be for the flak unit to choose its firing point and check both range and suppression to that point. Not sure if that's the right way to play it.

Author:	Jaggedtoothgrin [ Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:23 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Suppression and flak
firing takes place after the aircraft has finished its move so if "back of formation" is checked relative to the aircrafts position when flak is fired, that must be after the move has finished thus, based on where the aircraft ends. this can result in some weird circumstances, but not that many really. the bigger contention in this line of arguement is this: if an aircraft flies through flak, but ends outside of it, do you still check suppression based on when it was in range? if so, at what point? (examples being: if i end outside of autocannon range, does the IG player still get to use the infantry for suppression purposes before getting to the flak, or does it only trigger for the flak? what if move through a formation of hypothetically, HB armed infantry with a hydra, and end in range of the hydra but out of the HB range? the only viable suppression target at "end of move" is the hydra, but if i passed within HB range at one point, can the opponent declare point of fire to be then, and thus still count the HBs?)

Author:	Ginger [ Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:35 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Suppression and flak
Do realise that the air rules are somewhat "clunky" and this is one of the aspects that causes some confusion. Here are the relevant sections of the rules:- Quote: 4.2.4 Flak Attacks AA weapons are designed to fire defensively against an attacking enemy aircraft, and may therefore shoot immediately after an enemy aircraft formation makes an approach move but before it makes its attack. and Quote: Ground units that are armed with AA weapons can shoot at enemy aircraft as they move past them. To represent this, they may shoot at an aircraft formation that moved within their weapon range during their approach or disengagement move, even if the aircraft is no longer within weapon range when the attack is made. My emphasis So firing (and suppression) is resolved at the end of the move, but units eligible for firing and suppression are determined during the move. To be eligible for suppression, a unit only needs to be in range (and LoS) - it does not need to have the correct weapon type (AP/AT/AA) so in this case even units armed only with "small arms" that have a notional range of 15cm may qualify for suppression if the a/c passed within 15 cm of them. This is why the a/c must trace its flight across the table to allow the players to determine whether it passed through potential AA and suppression arcs of fire. As an example, a formation of two units with one BM, one of which is a ground AA unit If the a/c passes directly over both units from front to back and ends nearer to the AA unit, the other unit may be used for suppression. If the A/c flew outside the notional arc of fire of the other unit, or if the a/c ends its move nearer to the other unit, then the AA unit is supressed and may not fire.

Author:	Ginger [ Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Suppression and flak
Like I said, it is "clunky" From the suppression rules, eligibility for suppression is determined at the same time as eligibility for firing. Normally this is done as part of the firing process. Here, the question is whether the A/c is 'in range' for firing purposes and determining whether other units are 'in range' for suppression purposes must happen at the same time. However, the suppression process is completed in when resolving the firing (at the end of the A/c move). At that point, only those units that are eligible may be used for either firing or suppression.

Author:	dptdexys [ Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Suppression and flak
If AA is only fired after the aircraft has finished moving how would it be shot at when it disengages, as it only finishes it's move when it is of table.

Author:	Ginger [ Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Suppression and flak
IIRC Neal said the same thing as Hena; the A/c disengages to a table edge where firing + suppression is resolved, taking into account the physical positions of all the units at that point.

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