Tactical Command
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Daemons and Commander?
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=25772		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Dave [ Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Daemons and Commander?
Can you summon, place the daemons so that the formation is intermingled with other friendlies, and then engage taking the friendlies into the assault with you with Commander?
Author:  Onyx [ Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Daemons and Commander?
After re-reading the summoning rules, I'd say no.

The relevant rules:
Quote:
At the start of that formation’s action, before the action test dice roll is made, the formation may summon daemonic units from the Daemon Pool.
Quote:
Summoned units count as part of the formation for all rules purposes as long as they remain on the battlefield.


The relevant FAQ:
Quote:
Q:At which point in activating a formation is the decision to summon daemons made? Can I summon daemons and then declare which action a formation will make?
A:The decision to summon daemons is made between Step II of activating a formation (declare which action it will carry out) and Step III (the formation must then pass an action test to see if it carries out the action successfully). So you must declare the action before you summon daemons.


The declaration of the formation's action happens before the summoning.
Before the summoning happens, there wouldn't be any friendly formations within 5cm to be able to use the Commander ability with.
Author:  Dave [ Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Daemons and Commander?
The declaration of a combined assault is before the action test though, that's more of what I was getting at.

I don't think it's clear either way, it can be either:

1) Declare Action
2) Declare Combined Assault
3) Place Summoned Daemons
4) Roll Action Test

or

1) Declare Action
2) Place Summoned Daemons
3) Declare Combined Assault
4) Roll Action Test
Author:  Steve54 [ Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Daemons and Commander?
We have always played declare action-summon daemons- roll action test
Author:  Onyx [ Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Daemons and Commander?
The wording from the Commander special rule:
Quote:
Commanders can order up to three formations of troops to follow them when they make an assault, as long as all the formations have at least one unit within 5cm of a unit from the commander’s formation.
So with this and the FAQ in mind, at the moment of calling an Engagement, there would be no friendly units within 5cm of the Commander's formation so a combined engagement could not be called.

I have played with summoned daemons a bit when I was using the Red Corsairs list but I can't remember this situation ever popping up. :-\
Author:  Ginger [ Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Daemons and Commander?
A good question Dave. While the timing of placing Daemons is relatively clear, to my mind the question is at what point you declare the "combined" assault.

AFAIK this is part of the activation declaration (your 1st alternative), so I agree with Onyx that the Daemons do not yet exist to bridge the gap between formations.
Author:  Dave [ Fri Aug 16, 2013 6:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Daemons and Commander?
Worth a new FAQ I think.
Author:  jimmyzimms [ Fri Aug 16, 2013 6:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Daemons and Commander?
agreed
Author:  Ginger [ Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Daemons and Commander?
Seems we are all agreeing . . .

Would the following wording work for the FAQ:-
    Q. Can Daemons be summoned and then be used by a commander to order nearby formations to join in a combined assault?
    A. No. Daemons are summoned after the activation is declared but before the activation dice is rolled. The combined assault is assessed when the assault is declared and the Daemons have not been summoned at that point, so cannot be used to bridge the gap to nearby friendly formations.
    However, once on the table, Daemons are part of the formation so can be used for intermingling and commander purposes
Author:  dptdexys [ Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Daemons and Commander?
I asked the very same question a few years ago and it was confirmed, by the rules comittee, that combined assaults have to be declared before summoning of Daemons.
I even got a praise from Tiny Tim for coming up with an idea even he hadn't thought of for the use of Daemons, high praise indeed ;D .
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