Tactical Command
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Barrages and normal fire from the same formation question
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=22669		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  alansa [ Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Barrages and normal fire from the same formation question
A formation contains barrage weapon(s) and normal attacks

the template(s) are placed and a to hit dice is rolled for each unit under the template. Units hit are marked but saves are not taken and models are not removed, because we're now going to applay the normal attacks

so the normal weapons are fired and hits are allocated in the usual style front to back.

Note this means that some units could get hit twice, once from the barrage, once from the normal attack. This happens especially if the template is placed close to the front of the formation rather than further back. (cause there's more units at the front of course)

Have I got this right?
Author:  nealhunt [ Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Barrages and normal fire from the same formation questio
You would skip the barrage-hit units when allocating normal hits because they have, in effect, already had a hit allocated to them.

It does, however, get wonky when you are allocating MW barrage hits, because those are supposed to be done after normal shots.
Author:  captPiett [ Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Barrages and normal fire from the same formation questio
So, if firing all weapons from a decimator WE (the 3BP MW cannon and its reaper autocannons), would you resolve the autocannon shots then roll for the barrage? Or possibly would you place the templates, then resolve autocannons, then resolve MW hits, thus preserving the template-placing mechanic (maximizing units under the templates) while simultaneously preserving the MW-get-resolved-last mechanic?
Author:  alansa [ Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Barrages and normal fire from the same formation questio
but if you processed the normal weapons first - then you would get the effect I described.
does that mean it is stated in the rules somewhere to do always do barrages first?
Author:  alansa [ Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Barrages and normal fire from the same formation questio
captPiett wrote:
So, if firing all weapons from a decimator WE (the 3BP MW cannon and its reaper autocannons), would you resolve the autocannon shots then roll for the barrage? Or possibly would you place the templates, then resolve autocannons, then resolve MW hits, thus preserving the template-placing mechanic (maximizing units under the templates) while simultaneously preserving the MW-get-resolved-last mechanic?


but you don't make any saves until hit allocations from all weapons (except MW of course) have been made - so the preserve the template-placing mechanic you mentioned is not at issue
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Barrages and normal fire from the same formation questio
I concur with Neal.
Author:  Dave [ Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Barrages and normal fire from the same formation questio
Here's how we normally play it:

Attacker places templates (maximizing them) and rolls to hit for each unit type under them.
Defender allocates hits from templates.
Attacker rolls attacks for regular weapons.
Defender allocates hits from them, skipping over units who already have a template hit on them.
Defender rolls saves.

For MW barrages...

Attacker places templates (maximizing them) and rolls to hit for each unit type under them, and notes the # of hits on each unit type.
Attacker rolls attacks for regular weapons.
Defender allocates hits from them.
Defender rolls saves.
Defender allocates hits from MW barrage and makes saves for them if able.

And MW barrages and regular fire...

Attacker places templates (maximizing them) and rolls to hit for each unit type under them, and notes the # of hits on each unit type.
Attacker rolls attacks for regular weapons and MW weapons.
Defender allocates hits from regular weapons.
Defender rolls saves.
Defender allocates hits for MW barrage and then hits for MW weapons, skipping over units who already have a template hit on them.
Defender rolls saves if able.

On the last two, MW barrage hits can be wasted, as things under the templates may have failed a save from a regular hit. For example, you could have 3 Tacticals under a MW barrage and hit all 3, if one of them fails a normal save your third MW barrage hit is wasted.

Further question, what happens if the Tactical were Terminators in the example above? Would people have one of the two stands make two MW saves?
Author:  alansa [ Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Barrages and normal fire from the same formation questio
ok so as long as you remember always to do the barrage first, before normal weapons it'll work out
otherwise you certainly will get the doubling up effect I described

with MW barrages you have to

place template
fire non barrage weapons: roll to hit, allocate, make saves, remove dead
roll to hit each unit under the barrage template
if you also have any non barrage mw:
roll to hit, allocate against units not already allocated a hit from the barrage
make any saves and remove dead
Author:  nealhunt [ Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Barrages and normal fire from the same formation questio
Dave wrote:
For MW barrages...

Attacker places templates (maximizing them) and rolls to hit for each unit type under them, and notes the # of hits on each unit type.
Attacker rolls attacks for regular weapons.
Defender allocates hits from them.
Defender rolls saves.
Defender allocates hits from MW barrage and makes saves for them if able.

That's how we always did it.
Author:  Dave [ Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Barrages and normal fire from the same formation questio
How would you play the situation above Neal?

Two RA units are hit by a MW barrage. One fails a save from a regular hit. Does the remaining unit make one RA save for the MW barrage hits, or two?

By the rules, I'd say one. But it feels wrong to deny an attacker a hit like that.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Barrages and normal fire from the same formation questio
I've always played that you allocate mw barrage hits when you roll, and if the unit then dies to normal shooting, tough luck the mw hit is lost.

Similar to how mw cc attacks used to work.
Author:  nealhunt [ Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Barrages and normal fire from the same formation questio
Dave wrote:
How would you play the situation above Neal?

We shortcut the barrage rolls with the speedrolling rules - roll by type of unit and allocate front to back under the template. As a result, it folds in very easily with the normal allocation. We run it like the LV allocation - if certain hits can only be designated to certain units, we'd allocate those and then fill in with the normal front-to-back allocationso as to maximize the number of units hit before doubling up.

Quote:
Two RA units are hit by a MW barrage. One fails a save from a regular hit. Does the remaining unit make one RA save for the MW barrage hits, or two?

If you make it to the MW allocation and there are 2 MW infantry hits, you allocate 2 MW infantry hits to whatever infantry units are left under the template. In this case, it would be 2 hits on the one remaining unit.

You'd have to completely destroy every unit of a type under the template with normal fire before you completely lost later MW hit allocation. That usually means blasting your way through multiple units which are not under the template as well.
Author:  Dave [ Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Barrages and normal fire from the same formation questio
Probably worth adding something about this to a 5-min warmup, as whether you're using the speed-rolling from the barrage special rule will affect this.
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