Tactical Command
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What is missing from the E-A rules?
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=223		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  dafrca [ Thu Jun 19, 2003 2:37 am ]
Post subject:  What is missing from the E-A rules?
If you could add anything into the Epic-A rules, what would you like to see added?

I would like to see any new ideas you may have, not just OOP models that are missing... ?:D

Dafrca
Author:  Legion 4 [ Thu Jun 19, 2003 3:47 am ]
Post subject:  What is missing from the E-A rules?
FA - indirect fire rules are poor ! :angry:
Author:  MaksimSmelchak [ Thu Jun 19, 2003 4:43 am ]
Post subject:  What is missing from the E-A rules?
I'd like to see more flavor rules such as existed before Jervis "simplified" the lists again.

I liked the original Ork flavor rules before they were simplified.

I'd like to see the PDF stuff come out as well.

It's a pity that Jervis wants to make sure that there are models before he releases lists. That's never stopped a dedicated gamer yet.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
Author:  nealhunt [ Thu Jun 19, 2003 3:02 pm ]
Post subject:  What is missing from the E-A rules?
I'm pretty happy with the rules as is.  The latest errata fixed most of the lingering problems I had.  I am concerned about the new drop pod deployment and the latest proposed Artillery changes.  Other than that, the mechanics are fine.

There are still a few minor army list tweaks that I think need to be done.  The Ork army is going to be forced to be more of a horde.  I would like to see a Kommandoes/Stormboyz formation.

I would very much like to see the Vindicator have a better armor save and/or reinforced armor as it used to.

I would like to see Daemon Engines (they will be "section 8" though).

Pretty minor over all.
Author:  Legion 4 [ Thu Jun 19, 2003 4:04 pm ]
Post subject:  What is missing from the E-A rules?
Generally speaking the mechanics are good.

However my comments on FA still stands, a glaring weakness, in my mind... ?:L
Author:  MaksimSmelchak [ Thu Jun 19, 2003 5:20 pm ]
Post subject:  What is missing from the E-A rules?
Neal and Legion-4,

There are still a few minor army list tweaks that I think need to be done. The Ork army is going to be forced to be more of a horde. I would like to see a Kommandoes / Stormboyz formation.


I'd have to say that, overall, I like the mechanics.

I just think that the unit balancing is already in the toilet and is bound to get worse with current trends withstanding.

----------------------------

Jervis's inclination is to keep simplifying towards the Epic40k direction, which is a game I don't care much for. It works great as an overall strategy game, but the lack of flavor / fluff elements really stinks.

I see E-A going the same way for everyone but the Imperials.

Eventually it will be "mighty-awesome-really-cool" Space Marines and IG versus namesless faceless aliens with minor detail differences.

The little extra rules for each race is what give them their unique twist and make them fun in my opinion.

It just makes no sense for me to have "umpty-zillion" different SM and IG units and an Ork list that is "mondo" generic.

-------------------------------------

I really feel that a Kommandoes / Stormboyz formation is a good idea as well.

This lack is really representative of the problem:

- SMs get Terminators, Scouts, several versions of Landspeeders, etc.

- IG gets Stormtroopers, Valkyries, etc.

- Orks get Deth-Koptas, but lack some of their special troop types like ?Kommandoes / Stormboyz in good formations and have the Pulsa Rokkit diminshed to "just another Big Gun."

------------------------------

- Every time something new and innovative rolls along for the Orks, it seems to get removed or dimished.

Witness:

- Stompas
- BFs with variable weapon loads
- Supa-Stompa
- Ork Bommas
- Gunwagons, Battlewagons, Gun Trukks, etc.
- Ork light vehicles constantly mutating
- Ork Drednoughtz and Killa Kanz

I understand Jervis's desire to prevent all Pulsa Rokkit batteries, but isn't there a better way to do it than just destroying the Pulsas altogether?

-------------------------------

RANT MODE OFF!

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
Author:  TuffSkull [ Thu Jun 19, 2003 5:30 pm ]
Post subject:  What is missing from the E-A rules?
I haven't been following the E:A development since I have been ill.

It was looking great then, but have all the Ork units you listed there Maksim been scrapped?

If so, this isn't sounding like a good route to go....
Author:  Jimbo [ Thu Jun 19, 2003 5:51 pm ]
Post subject:  What is missing from the E-A rules?
For me the stuff that is "missing" is stuff like water-based forces, landing craft, monitors, riverine forces, paddle steamers... etc.
Author:  MaksimSmelchak [ Thu Jun 19, 2003 5:53 pm ]
Post subject:  What is missing from the E-A rules?
Tuffskull,

I haven't been following the E:A development since I have been ill.
It was looking great then, but have all the Ork units you listed there Maksim been scrapped?
If so, this isn't sounding like a good route to go....


This is their current status as far as I know:

- Stompas - Stompas have been mutating greatly over the playtest versions. They were orginally very very hard with decent firepower. they have been slowly trading in their firepower for increased CC ability. I don't like the trade one bit. I beleive that they were cheaper at one time too, but haven't checked that out.

- BFs with variable weapon loads - Battle Fortresses lost their variable weapon loads and instead got the Oddboy upgrade = bad deal!

- Supa-Stompa - Still around and unmarginalized as of yet. Although the escalation of Imperial forces makes the unit less viable.  

- Ork Bommas - Totally gone. This was perhaps my favorite new unit too! It worked really well and Iw asted some good SM formation using flights of three Bommas. Rumor has it that there isn't a model yet and that's why it was scrapped.

- Gunwagons, Battlewagons, Gun Trukks, etc. - These are still around and are currently called Gun Wagonz, War Trukks and Battle Wagonz. All of the other thinhs have been combined under these two names.

- Ork light vehicles constantly mutating - Buggies and Skorchas are still around.

- Ork Drednoughtz and Killa Kanz - these keep mutating. They're getting better at CC.

- Ork Warlord - It looks like he was eliminated.

- New limits on Ork formation size x2 or x3 also appear to be in place.

- The old 0-1 limits apply to Oddboyz upgrades and SupaStompas now. This is a real loss because I was getting the hang of using multiple SupaStompa mobz well.

- Orks lost most of their fluff rules.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
Author:  dafrca [ Thu Jun 19, 2003 10:45 pm ]
Post subject:  What is missing from the E-A rules?
Although I agree with Maksim in his overall observation that the rules have been simplified when it comes to "fluff" and "extras." There has been a cleaning out of the fluff. I believe his dramatization of the Orks and their changes is overdone.

The Orks are the only army in our eight member group to have never lost a game. SM, IG, Eldar, and Bugs have all lost more than once. Only the Orks have seemed to always take the field. This makes me question just how poor is the army. Between the availability of their smaller cheap formations and the neverending airstrike formation, I would not say they are weak by any means. Lack fluff? Yes, all of them do now. Weak, no.

Dafrca
Author:  MaksimSmelchak [ Fri Jun 20, 2003 3:06 am ]
Post subject:  What is missing from the E-A rules?
Dafrca,

Although I agree with Maksim in his overall observation that the rules have been simplified when it comes to "fluff" and "extras." There has been a cleaning out of the fluff. I believe his dramatization of the Orks and their changes is overdone.


We can agree to diagree. No big deal. It wouldn't be the first time either that I had OVERDONE something! :D

The fluff and detail level has dropped ramatically to make the game a smoother running game along Epic-40k lines. My impression is that Jervis has been allowing as little detail as he can in order to keep the Epic-40k engine as close to what it was as possible and still please the fans. That's his choice and I can respect it even if I don't care much for it.

As far as dramatization goes, I don't think it's overstated one iota that the Orks are very inferior to how they were when the first set of playset rules came out. In some ways they improved and others they became diminished.

I desired to see Orks play differently than they did in Epic-40k where Orks had one strategy - rush forward and overwhelm the enemy. That strategy became tiring for me after awhile, but nothing else worked even close to as well as the basic Ork strategy. Que sera, sera!

In the beginning sets of playtest rules, the Orks played like more than a "rush-forward-to-overwhelm-them" kind of army, which I really liked. By the latest edition of the E-A rules, they're back to being a hoard army.

The Orks are the only army in our eight member group to have never lost a game. SM, IG, Eldar, and Bugs have all lost more than once. Only the Orks have seemed to always take the field. This makes me question just how poor is the army. Between the availability of their smaller cheap formations and the neverending airstrike formation, I would not say they are weak by any means. Lack fluff? Yes, all of them do now. Weak, no.

I don't think I called them weak in these posts, but "diminished." My statement regarding Orks in E-A is that versus experienced SM and IG players, the Orks should win well under half the time. Until IG and SM players learn how to exploit the Ork weaknesses, the Orks should win quite often. As soon as the Ork weaknesses become known, the limited nature of the Ork lists should ensure that Orks lose very often much like older lists do in 25mm 40k. ?

I look at the tactic of using as many minimal Ork formations as possible to be a way of breaking the system. I always played theme armies with some balance. So did my SM and IG opponents.

-----------------------------------------

In the end of ends, none of my kvetching (complaining) really matters since I want to play with my 6mm Epic minis and I want to do it with others like Dafrca. I'll play E-A, no problem, understanding its' shortcomings.

Thanks for the feedback, Dafrca! ? :)

Best regards to everyone,
Maksim-Smelchak.

P.S.
Dafrca, let me know when you receive our last trade items, please. I'll do what I can to make sure that you are a satisfied trade partner.
Author:  Legion 4 [ Fri Jun 20, 2003 4:34 am ]
Post subject:  What is missing from the E-A rules?
Well,

I hope in the final copy, the army lists will work out, for all your sakes. ?

We will continue to use our existing TO&Es regardless. ?

The indirect fire rules is the main weakness, but again this is my opinion.

We will continue to use the modified SM1 system. ?

Happy Gaming, no matter what rules you use. ?:D
Author:  nealhunt [ Fri Jun 20, 2003 4:23 pm ]
Post subject:  What is missing from the E-A rules?
Maksim:  I think some of the points you make don't apply to the latest stuff.

- Stompas

They are exactly what you want - tough fire support.  They have 2 big gunz and Reinforced Armor, with optional CC.  AFAIK, they have always been 50 points.

- Ork Warlord - It looks like he was eliminated.

The Warlord upgrade in most formations was scrapped in favor of much-improved nobz.  The Warboss/Big Boss upgrade that comes with an ork force is still there.

- New limits on Ork formation size x2 or x3 also appear to be in place.

There is no limit on formation size, except for aircraft.  They can buy the core formations at x2 or x3 size and cost because it's cheaper than buying each unit individually.  Or did you mean something else?

- Orks lost most of their fluff rules.

They get "mob up" bonuses.  They get wildly diverse formations.  They get a Warboss.  They get bonuses for charging into combat in a Waaagh-like fashion.  That covers Orkiness pretty well, imho.  What rules are you referring to?

>> As soon as the Ork weaknesses become known, the limited nature of the Ork lists...

*boggle* :oo   Limited?  The only limitations are Oddboyz, Supastompas, and the total points on WE/Aircraft.  Outside of your personal preference for Supastompas, how does any of that limit strategic choices?  Aside from a very non-orky stand-and-deliver force, you can build anything you want.

========
Some other stuff...

>> By the latest edition of the E-A rules, they're back to being a hoard army.

I don't understand what you mean by "back to..a horde."  They've always been "the green hordes."  I understand you may not like it, but it certainly fits the background.

- BFs with variable weapon loads
- The old 0-1 limits apply to Oddboyz upgrades and SupaStompas now.

I agree you should be able to get more than one upgrade for the soopagunz (BFs and Big Gunz upgrade) and Painboyz (nobz upgrade).  The Zapp gunz are too powerful.  I doubt most opponents would object as long as you kept it reasonable.  I would suggest you field your Pulsa Rokkits as Oddboyz Big Gunz so they have templates.

- Ork Bommas

This would be nice, but I don't think its absence hurts the Orks.  Ork airpower is wicked.

- Gunwagons, Battlewagons, Gun Trukks, etc. - All of the other thinhs have been combined

Were stats for lungburstas, gutrippas, ad infinitum, different enough to bother with, even in SM2?  I never thought so, even for fluff.

========

None of that was intended to be abrasive.  You have my apologies if it came across as such.
Author:  Legion 4 [ Fri Jun 20, 2003 4:50 pm ]
Post subject:  What is missing from the E-A rules?
Well, like I said, much of E-A is still "under construction", it appears, regardless of the fact that they said the rule book was headed to the printer (?).

The dicussion on the FA topic showed Jervis was still making changes (?). ?

So, I imagine the final copy will come with an errata sheet or pamphlet (?). ?

I'm glad we use our own "hybrid" rules and only adding a few things from E-A like modified Flak rules and maybe even the ranged combat system?

My buddy is going to Games Day US this weekend, (besides getting me some F/W Epic Night Spinners and possibly some other new Epic F/W (?) ), he is going see if he can get any new intell on E-A. ?

Anything worth noting, I'll let you all know... ?:D
Author:  nealhunt [ Fri Jun 20, 2003 5:03 pm ]
Post subject:  What is missing from the E-A rules?
It's not at the printers. ?

It's with the editors getting print-ready, and doing the (supposedly) final draft. ?

Printing isn't supposed to start until September, IIRC.
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