Tactical Command
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Space Marines and Unit count for assault resolution
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=21634		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  AgeingHippy [ Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Space Marines and Unit count for assault resolution
Hi People

I think I read somewhere that Space Marine units count for 2 when determining the modifiers (+1 if more units than opponent, +1 if more than double the units of opponent) when resolving assaults. I may be mistaken in this, but I wonder if anyone knows what I am talking about and if so, can point me to the relevant documentation?
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Space Marines and Unit count for assault resolution
Nope, Space Marine units don't count as two units for working out whether or not they outnumber the enemy.
Author:  AgeingHippy [ Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Space Marines and Unit count for assault resolution
lol - thanks for that evil. It is weird though, I am sure I read that at some random location... Probably had to do with blast markers and unit suppression...
Author:  Ginger [ Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Space Marines and Unit count for assault resolution
As you say, I think you are refering to the "And They Shall Know No Fear" (ATSKNF) rule, and how Marines treat BMs. In other races a BM equates to a unit; if you have a number of BMs in a formation, that number of units are suppressed (from the rear); if the BMs equal the units, then the formation becomes broken.

However for Marines, the ATSKNF rule means that *two* BMs equate to one Marine unit for both suppression and determining when the formation breaks. In addition (and it is here that I think you are getting those random memory flashbacks :)), Marines only count half the number of BMs in assault resolution (rounded down), and only half the number of Hackdown hits when losing an assault.
Author:  Ulrik [ Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Space Marines and Unit count for assault resolution
Ginger wrote:
Marines only count half the number of BMs in assault resolution (rounded down)


They do?
Author:  AgeingHippy [ Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Space Marines and Unit count for assault resolution
Ginger wrote:
... Marines only count half the number of BMs in assault resolution (rounded down), and only half the number of Hackdown hits when losing an assault.


Hey Ginger

So counting half the blast markers rounded down is when determining if the opponent has more blast markers than you?

Also, if you have 1 blast marker then, halved and rounded down would mean you have no blast markers so you get the +1 there?

Finally, if the difference is 4 points in the assault resolution the marines would take 2 hits (no save) as opposed to 4 hits (no save)?

Cheers
Author:  Mephiston [ Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Space Marines and Unit count for assault resolution
Quote:
So counting half the blast markers rounded down is when determining if the opponent has more blast markers than you?

Also, if you have 1 blast marker then, halved and rounded down would mean you have no blast markers so you get the +1 there?

No, you still count as having blast markers, just less than the enemy.

Quote:
Finally, if the difference is 4 points in the assault resolution the marines would take 2 hits (no save) as opposed to 4 hits (no save)?

Cheers


Correct only 2 units are removed with no save.
Author:  AgeingHippy [ Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Space Marines and Unit count for assault resolution
SHame this was not clarified yesterday. I got thoroughly smashed by Orks - a bike squad managed to CC my tacticals loaded in Rhinos and blocked exit... the assault resolution points smashed me :(

Nevermind.
Author:  AgeingHippy [ Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Space Marines and Unit count for assault resolution
Can anyone point to the documentation where this is stated. Of course the play group does not buy this rule.
Author:  AgeingHippy [ Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Space Marines and Unit count for assault resolution
Nevermind - I have found it.

http://www.epic-uk.co.uk/lists/Codex_Space_Marines.pdf Page 3. Codex Astartes Space Marine Special Rules
Author:  Ulrik [ Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Space Marines and Unit count for assault resolution
p. 74 on the updated rulebook on GWs Specialist Games Epic resources.

It's not in the original printing. I believe that change is reversed in the current NetEA list, but not in the EpicUK list?
Author:  Kyrt [ Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Space Marines and Unit count for assault resolution
It's quite easily to forget how to apply the ATSKNF rule. I find it easiest to think "they collect them normally, but their effect is halved". So they still get the normal number blast markers after an assault, but those blast markers only have half the effect (either hacking down additional units if they lose, or counting for broken if they win).

You still have to remember what to do when rallying though *sigh*.
Author:  AgeingHippy [ Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Space Marines and Unit count for assault resolution
Do single blast markers count as a hit (no save) if the SM formation is broken?
Author:  MikeT [ Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Space Marines and Unit count for assault resolution
AgeingHippy wrote:
Do single blast markers count as a hit (no save) if the SM formation is broken?


No, so you need to apply 2 blast markers in a single attack on a broken space marine formation to kill one.


Also, with all these rules questions, your group seems kinda weird and remarkably bull headed considering how many rules they're applying wrong.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Space Marines and Unit count for assault resolution
MikeT wrote:
AgeingHippy wrote:
Do single blast markers count as a hit (no save) if the SM formation is broken?


No, so you need to apply 2 blast markers in a single attack on a broken space marine formation to kill one.


Also, with all these rules questions, your group seems kinda weird and remarkably bull headed considering how many rules they're applying wrong.

Don't be so rude!
He's just learning the game.
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