An intruiging question came up during the recent GT in Maelstrom.

A formation of Ork stompas assaulted the flank of an Eldar jetbike formation (which already had three BMs). The front two jetbikes were within 10cms respectively of a formation of Scorchas and a Blitz brigade (with three BMs), which were countercharged and brought into the assault. Near the Blitz brigade was a second formation of jetbikes, which were thus brought into support their colleagues. After the first round of combat, the two lead jetbikes had died along with a scorcha and buggy. However the assault resolution tied resulting in a second round of combat.

With the death of the lead Jetbikes, most of the Scorchas and the entire Blitz brigade were now out of 15cms from the target jetbike formation, but still in range of the supporting Jetbikes. So, can the supporting Eldar jetbikes still support or not? The key here is whether the Ork units now out of range are still considered to be "involved in the assault" or not

There are two options
1) All units that were originally "involved in the assault" are considered to be "involved" until the assault is resolved, even if in subsequent rounds they cannot use their factors

2) Units "involved in the assault" are reassessed each round - so those now out of range are no longer involved even if they were "involved" in earlier rounds

In our case, we decided that option 2) was correct, thus units in the Blitz brigade were no longer "involved" which in turn meant that the 'supporting' Jetbikes could no longer support. Needless to say, things did not go so well for the Jetbikes - - -

However, the rules do not give any clues either way, and it would be good to sort this out officially.

Looks like you played it correctly to me, its reasonably clearly covered in the ammended assault text in the 2008 errata, in the case of a tie you make counter charges and then reasses who is directly involved in the assault.

I am not sure it is so clear cut. I agree that the rules and amendments are reasonably clear about formations and units involved in the 1st round of the assault, but they are much less clear about subsequent rounds.

The point is that the units in question were initially involved in the assault, so it could be argued that they remain "involved" until the assault is resolved - even though they can no longer participate.

This is similar to the definition of supporting formations that were in range to enemy units which died as part of the assault. The formation is still considered to be "supporting" even though it is now out of range of eligible targets, and if their side loses the assault it receives a BM even though it did not actually take part.

Oooh...Can't wait to see where this one leads us! I'll have a read of the errata later and see if I can understand where we were meant to take it too.
(For reference I was the ork player above)
R>

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2 looks right to me.

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From the rule book, highlighted the relevent part.



The underlined part should solve any queries as it states for the duration of the assault not just the first turn.

They could lend supporting fire if they had any viable targets (in FF range and within 15cm of their own troops being directly engaged).

As the rule states anyone dragged into an engagement are involved for the duration of the assault not just per turn.

Well, the moral of this story is to look in the book before calling a ref over!

"Any enemy formations that are CONTACTED"

Does this not mean you must get into Base to Base? Not just FF range?!

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And this is the point. While it is clear that the other formations dragged into the assault are all considered a single formation for the duration, it is not clear from the text whether the term "involved" is also intended to last for the duration of the assault. (and yes MoK they had to be "contacted" base-base, though being jetbikes they can then still use their FF values).

In this case, at the start of the 2nd assault round, the Blitz brigade was no longer in 15cm of the target (Eldar) troops as the lead jetbikes had already died; and these BB units were the only ones in range of the support fire from the other Jetbikes. So do they constitute a 'viable target' from the definition of being "involved" in the 1st round or not?

Support fire is normally considered purely in terms of those enemy units that have actively participated in the assault. We agree that support fire cannot take place where those enemy units have died or did not actively take part.

However here the support fire is in range of units that are still alive but no longer actively participating in the assault, although they were involved earlier on in the assault. So are they still "involved" or not?
(note, at the end of the 1st round they [i]were eligible targets for support fire as they were involved and had not been killed during the assault)[/i]

To me at least, it is still far from clear whether such units can be considered to be 'viable targets' or not.

So...just for ME to be clear on this one: for an additional formation to be dragged into an assault the enemy have to counter charge INTO B2B contact, not just FF range (as that's just support fire?)?

THe mistake I made was to have units within 10cm of your jetbikes thus allowing them to come into B2B yes?

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Correct MoK, to be drawn in the units have to be B2B. pesky jet bikes, far too good

Curses! Foiled again!

At least I came out victorious in the long run!

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They would still be involved (part of the assault for outnumbering,taking hackdowns,consolidation,breaking from losing etc.) but not "directly involved" as stated in 1.12.6 (highlighted relevant part)



It would make no difference from 1st round of combat to 2nd/3rd//4th/Nth round of combat.
If there is a viable target you get to support, if no viable target you do not get to support.
Any formation that was in position to lend support, at any stage of the combat, that was on the losing side would also take a BM. Even if it was eventually out of support range.

( from 1.12.8 )