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range to units in cover
Dave
 Post subject: range to units in cover
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:05 pm 
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This came up in a game last week.

Let's say Formation A wants to fire on Formation B. It has range to one unit in B that is out of cover. The rest of the units in B are in cover but are out of range of all units in A. Can A choose to shoot at the units in cover, taking the -1 to all its hit units?

Also, on the same vein.

Let's say Formation A wants to fire on Formation B. It has range to one unit in B that is in cover. The rest of the units in B are out of cover but are out of range of all units in A. Can A choose ignore the one unit in cover and apply its hits to those out of cover even though none are within range?

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zombocom
 Post subject: range to units in cover
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:08 pm 
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No on both counts. Hits can only ever be applied to units in range.

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Dave
 Post subject: range to units in cover
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:02 pm 
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He's right.

1.9.6 Allocate Hits & Make Saving Throws
You must allocate hits inflicted on your formation against
targets that are within range and line of fire of the enemy.


Mosc., you've got some 'splaining to do...

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: range to units in cover
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:09 pm 
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But note its both that each unit firing is in range and that the shots hit each unit in range of the formation. So say a squadron of schorcha with one buggy (the only buggy in the army!) might have 7 skorcha in range of one chap, but they can allocate hits to all the units in range of the buggy.

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Chroma
 Post subject: range to units in cover
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:11 pm 
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Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 30 Jul. 2009, 22:09 )

But note its both that each unit firing is in range and that the shots hit each unit in range of the formation. So say a squadron of schorcha with one buggy (the only buggy in the army!) might have 7 skorcha in range of one chap, but they can allocate hits to all the units in range of the buggy.

I really dislike this rule... far too "gamey" for my tastes.

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zombocom
 Post subject: range to units in cover
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:16 pm 
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Chroma: What alternative would you propose? Allocation of each hit as it's caused would really slow things down.

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Chroma
 Post subject: range to units in cover
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:34 pm 
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Quote: (zombocom @ 30 Jul. 2009, 22:16 )

Chroma: What alternative would you propose? Allocation of each hit as it's caused would really slow things down.

Different coloured dice for different range bands... or each band as a massed roll that's assigned as appropriate.

I doesn't happen *that* often, but if you had a Gunwagon in with those Skorchas, somehow the flames could reach 45cm... which, I'm sorry, is just silly.  You could easily roll different dice in the Skorcha situation and assign all those hits to the poor cad 15cm away and the single Gunwagon hit to the next available target.

People don't consider that "gamey"?




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nealhunt
 Post subject: range to units in cover
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:25 pm 
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Quote: (Chroma @ 30 Jul. 2009, 22:34 )

if you had a Gunwagon in with those Skorchas, somehow the flames could reach 45cm...

Your theoretical example would also require the target formation to stretch from within 15cm to 45cm away, AND to get enough hits for them to be allocated all the way down the line.

People don't consider that "gamey"?


No, because most of the time it's just "this blob of units are firing at that blob of units" and if a few are getting a minor range boost, no one even notices.

I actually feel far more gamey about stretching LoS than range.  I once had a formation with 1 target in LoS of a Russ company, and only one Leman Russ could see the rest of the formation.  However, because that one Russ could see, hits were allocated all across the formation.  That was gamey as hell - far worse than any range stretching I experienced.

The only time range-stretching comes up consistently is with Tbolts intercepting enemy aircraft with 15cm AA.  Even then it requires you to get both the Tbolts in range one of the AA shots.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: range to units in cover
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:33 pm 
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I agree with Neal that LoS stretching is worse, and even that doesn't come up all that often (though his point about Thunderbolts is quite true, I used it when attacking some Tau aircraft on Tuesday... didn't kill either of them though!).

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Ginger
 Post subject: range to units in cover
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:42 am 
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Guys, the rules specify that shooting is done on a unit by unit basis:-
1.9.2 Who May Shoot
In order to shoot, a unit must be in range and have a line of fire to at least one unit in the target formation, and must not be suppressed.
So in the cases cited where there is a single long-ranged unit in a mob, only that unit can fire.

Equally, where a unit has multiple weapons with different ranges, only those weapons in range may shoot.

The only kind of shooting that has slightly 'elastic' ranges is barrages, where the initial measuring is done from the firers to a target unit, but the template(s) can be placed to cover units beyond this target.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: range to units in cover
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:44 am 
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No one is saying that isn't true. The units have to be in range of at least one unit. We are discussing hit allocation though which is slightly different?

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zombocom
 Post subject: range to units in cover
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:03 am 
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Quote: (Ginger @ 31 Jul. 2009, 00:42 )

Guys, the rules specify that shooting is done on a unit by unit basis:-
1.9.2 Who May Shoot
In order to shoot, a unit must be in range and have a line of fire to at least one unit in the target formation, and must not be suppressed.
So in the cases cited where there is a single long-ranged unit in a mob, only that unit can fire.

Equally, where a unit has multiple weapons with different ranges, only those weapons in range may shoot.

That's not the issue.

Imagine a formation with 1 45cm shot and 10 15cm shots. Imagine that formation has all units in range to shoot, but the 15cm units are only in range of 1 enemy unit.

The 45cm ranged unit makes the whole formation a viable target for hit allocation, so the 15cm ranged shots end up being applied to units that are further than 15cm away.

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Carrington
 Post subject: range to units in cover
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:05 am 
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Quote: (nealhunt @ 30 Jul. 2009, 23:25 )

I actually feel far more gamey about stretching LoS than range.  I once had a formation with 1 target in LoS of a Russ company, and only one Leman Russ could see the rest of the formation.  However, because that one Russ could see, hits were allocated all across the formation.  That was gamey as hell - far worse than any range stretching I experienced.

This particular quirk in the rules means that dense terrain has to be really dense in order to have a significant LOS effect.

Unless the buildings are placed almost cheek to jowl, a city made up of the GW paper buildings rarely has much of an LOS effect at all, except when dealing with the smallest formations.
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Chroma
 Post subject: range to units in cover
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:06 am 
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Quote: (nealhunt @ 30 Jul. 2009, 23:25 )

I actually feel far more gamey about stretching LoS than range.  I once had a formation with 1 target in LoS of a Russ company, and only one Leman Russ could see the rest of the formation.  However, because that one Russ could see, hits were allocated all across the formation.  That was gamey as hell - far worse than any range stretching I experienced.

I can honestly say I've never played that way.  I can't think of a time when something like that had ever come up... and, if it had, we would've rolled separately for each "group" of Russes, because the alternative is *WAY* too gamey.

Conceptually, it's the same type of "thing" as range stretching, and I don't like it.  *laugh*

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: range to units in cover
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 4:31 am 
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I can honestly say I've never played that way.  

Can't say Reddeth and I ever play it that way either, to my knowledge. "If you can't see it you can't fire" is how we do it. It's a bit whiffy otherwise.

I'm with Chroma on this.
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