Tactical Command
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Rules Queries #2 - Broken Unit in Thunderhawk
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Author:  frogbear [ Sun Mar 08, 2009 4:07 am ]
Post subject:  Rules Queries #2 - Broken Unit in Thunderhawk
Hi all

2nd question for today. Let me outline the scenario:

Thunderhawk 1 lands and disgorges 2 assault units. After winning the combat one of those units consolidates back into the Thunderhawk

Thunderhawk 2 lands and disgorges 2 units. They lose the assault, thunderhawk is destroyed, another unit is wiped out, and the third unit (being broken), falls back into Thunderhawk 1. Thunderhawk 1 then leaves the table with 2 units at the end of the turn. Unit inside the Thunderhawk fails to rally.

Later turn. Thunderhawk 1 wishes to engage an enemy unit. What happens to the broken unit in this case?

1. Does it stay in the Thunderhawk?
2. If not, can they lend their FF value to the combat?
3. Is the Thunderhawk allowed to carry out the action with a broken unit?

Thanks in advance
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Sun Mar 08, 2009 11:28 am ]
Post subject:  Rules Queries #2 - Broken Unit in Thunderhawk
I think the consensus last time was :

1 - Yes
2 - No
3 - Yes

Note that you do bring blast markers into the combat for bringing in a broken unit.
Author:  Mephiston [ Sun Mar 08, 2009 11:32 am ]
Post subject:  Rules Queries #2 - Broken Unit in Thunderhawk
One thing to note. If the first unit of assault marines uses its consolidation move to re board the thunderhawk it can't take of in the same turn.
Author:  Morgan Vening [ Sun Mar 08, 2009 1:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Rules Queries #2 - Broken Unit in Thunderhawk
Quote: (Mephiston @ 08 Mar. 2009, 10:32 )

One thing to note. If the first unit of assault marines uses its consolidation move to re board the thunderhawk it can't take of in the same turn.

How's that?

Rules 4.2.5
Once landed, the aircraft may make a
disengagement move and exit the table in the end phase
of any turn, including the one it landed in.

Rules 4.2.6
In the end phase, all aircraft that that have not landed
must exit the table. Aircraft that have landed may choose to exit the table.

Rules 3.1.6
The war engine is allowed to have taken an action before the other
formation mounts up, but may not take an action after they have done so.

I don't doubt you're likely correct, but I can't find anything other than the above to clarify your position, and I don't see how a 'disengagement move' is an 'action'.

Morgan Vening
Author:  Ginger [ Sun Mar 08, 2009 1:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Rules Queries #2 - Broken Unit in Thunderhawk
As E&C says, it is the Thunderhawk that activates. Troops on board are carried along for the ride and usually may join in the THawks activation. However Broken troops may not disembark. They do count towards the formation size, but also add BMs to the formation. From the Specialist Games FAQ
Q: Is a War Engine Transport that is carrying a broken formation allowed to make an Assault?
A: Yes. However, any broken formations on board the War Engine are not allowed to disembark to take part in the Assault (they remain cowering inside instead!). If forced to disembark because the War Engine is destroyed during the Assault then they are automatically destroyed with no saving throws of any kind allowed. Also, note that the Blast Markers on the transported formation are counted when working out the result of the Assault (i.e. for who has the most Blast Markers, etc). Note, the Broken troops may disembark to defend the WE if it is attacked.

Mephiston is also correct. Consolidation is deemed to take place in the end-phase and replaces the disengagement of Air Transport. So if troops consolidate onto the transport, it must remain on the ground throughout the following turn.

Note, there are a number of other ways of organising things to embark troops without incurring this penalty. For example, the first THawk may ground assault with the victorious troops consolidating a small distance away. Later the second (empty) THawk performs a ground attack, landing on the troops and embarking them. In the end-phase both THawks fly off, and repeat the performance the following turn.
Author:  Ginger [ Sun Mar 08, 2009 1:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Rules Queries #2 - Broken Unit in Thunderhawk
Quote: (Morgan Vening @ 08 Mar. 2009, 12:31 )

Quote: (Mephiston @ 08 Mar. 2009, 10:32 )

One thing to note. If the first unit of assault marines uses its consolidation move to re board the thunderhawk it can't take of in the same turn.

How's that?

[snip]

I don't doubt you're likely correct, but I can't find anything other than the above to clarify your position, and I don't see how a 'disengagement move' is an 'action'.

Morgan Vening

From the Specialist Games FAQ:-
Q: Can a unit that disembarked from a War Engine to take part in an Assault use its consolidation move to get back into the War Engine?
A: Yes it can. However, if it does so then the War Engine loses its own Consolidation move (and War Engine Transports may not make a Disengagement move at the end of the turn) as it has to wait around while the troops climb back on board. Note that the War Engine may make a Consolidation move (or a Disengagement move if it is an aircraft) if no troops embark upon it. This clarification is intended to prevent the 'eternal' air assault by a single air transport with a single formation. You can still achieve similar results in a number of ways (as I outlined above), but you need multiple air and/or  ground formations and it becomes a whole lot harder to do.
Author:  Morgan Vening [ Sun Mar 08, 2009 10:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Rules Queries #2 - Broken Unit in Thunderhawk
Quote: (Ginger @ 08 Mar. 2009, 12:43 )

From the Specialist Games FAQ:-
Q: Can a unit that disembarked from a War Engine to take part in an Assault use its consolidation move to get back into the War Engine?
A: Yes it can. However, if it does so then the War Engine loses its own Consolidation move (and War Engine Transports may not make a Disengagement move at the end of the turn) as it has to wait around while the troops climb back on board. Note that the War Engine may make a Consolidation move (or a Disengagement move if it is an aircraft) if no troops embark upon it.
This clarification is intended to prevent the 'eternal' air assault by a single air transport with a single formation. You can still achieve similar results in a number of ways (as I outlined above), but you need multiple air and/or  ground formations and it becomes a whole lot harder to do.
That's cool. We're still fairly new to the whole aircraft thing, and not completely fluent on War Machines either.

He failed to bring the Thunderhawk on in the third round, as he rolled a 1, needing a 4+ (3BM). If I had shot at it while it was still on the ground, giving it it's 4th BM, how do the inter-relations of Broken and Aircraft work then? Does a Broken aircraft get to disengage? How does that affect the BM's of it re-activating if it does disengage (just counted as full?)

Morgan Vening
Author:  Ginger [ Sun Mar 08, 2009 11:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Rules Queries #2 - Broken Unit in Thunderhawk
If you check the aircraft section, you will note that when the air formation tries to activate, any BMs it has are dropped. So if it stands down, or if it flies onto the battlefield it now has no BMs.

Secondly, Aircraft do not work in quite the same way as ground units. Its only if they land and are then treated for all purposes as a ground unit that an air transport can be "broken". Aircraft that are flying do not count as broken even if they receive sufficient BMs. Note also they only get 1x BM for being shot at when flying to their target and only 1x BM when they disengage irrespective of the number of AA weapons that are shooting at them (and 1x BM for every hit of course).

Thirdly, A THawk on the ground still requires 4x BMs to become broken. When broken on the ground, the THawk must then withdraw (which it cannot as it has a 0cm movement) and if it is then within 15cm of an enemy unit it is destroyed (see 1.13.3).

If the air formation flies off the table, you then have to beat the new BMS in order to activate it.
Author:  frogbear [ Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:33 am ]
Post subject:  Rules Queries #2 - Broken Unit in Thunderhawk
Thanks people for your replies.

Have to rethink such assaults in the future...
Author:  nealhunt [ Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Rules Queries #2 - Broken Unit in Thunderhawk
Quote: (Morgan Vening @ 08 Mar. 2009, 21:49 )

If I had shot at it while it was still on the ground, giving it it's 4th BM, how do the inter-relations of Broken and Aircraft work then?

As Ginger noted, it breaks as a normal ground unit, has to Withdraw (even though at 0cm move, it isn't going anywhere) and suffers "hackdown" hits for being within 15cm at the end of withdrawal and any additional BMs.

Does a Broken aircraft get to disengage?
Yep.  Broken has no effect on whether it can disengage.

How does that affect the BM's of it re-activating if it does disengage (just counted as full?)
A disengaging aircraft takes its BMs with it.  Since the Thawk needs 4 BMs to break, when it's broken it counts as having 4 BMs.  It would have them when it tried to activate the following turn and would have a -4 like any other aircraft with 4 BMs.
Author:  mspaetauf [ Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Rules Queries #2 - Broken Unit in Thunderhawk
hmm hmm isn't a landed aircraft that has to withdraw destroyed immediately? or is that just true when it's lost an assault?
Author:  nealhunt [ Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Rules Queries #2 - Broken Unit in Thunderhawk
It's even more restricted than that.  It's only a lost air assault that causes the auto-kill (section 4.2.6?).
Author:  Ginger [ Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Rules Queries #2 - Broken Unit in Thunderhawk
Umm Neal, I know we have discussed this before, but I thought a landed transport that lost an assault was auto-destroyed under 4.2.5 and 1.13.3 irrespective of who initiated the assault (unless it is Fearless of course). You seem to be suggesting that under certain circumstances it could survive an assault that it lost. Could you explain further.

mspaetauf, if the THawk is Broken through shooting, it is only destroyed if it is in an enemy ZoC at the point it becomes broken (as it cannot withdraw, so it dies under 1.13.3), or through subsequent shooting BMs.
Author:  mspaetauf [ Sun Mar 15, 2009 6:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Rules Queries #2 - Broken Unit in Thunderhawk
another question from me:

Thunderhawk comes in, lands, shoots at target of choice, then picks up a Terminator Detachment that is within 5cms, and disengages at the end of turn.

Terminator Detachment had 3 BMs. Are the terminators allowed to rally on board of the thunderhawk, or even off - table?

What happens first anyway? Disengage or rally?

bg,
Author:  Mephiston [ Sun Mar 15, 2009 7:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Rules Queries #2 - Broken Unit in Thunderhawk
They can rally off board. Planes disengage before rallying.
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