Tactical Command
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I have no idea what happens in this situation.
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Author:  Nicoch [ Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:24 am ]
Post subject:  I have no idea what happens in this situation.
Me and my opponent are still learning the game. He launched an air assault at a unit of stormtroopers and valkyries on overwatch. Wasn't sure what happened there, since technically there was no engage move, but you can overwatch when something unloads troops, but then again they unload and immediately assault.

We said I could overwatch anyway. I end up breaking his warband. Then what happens? Does he carry out the assault, or immediately withdraw?

And what happens to the landa? Are move 0 war engines immediately destroyed if broken with 15cm, or do they just take a DC for each unit within 15?
Author:  Chroma [ Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:55 am ]
Post subject:  I have no idea what happens in this situation.
Quote: (Nicoch @ 13 Feb. 2009, 01:24 )

Me and my opponent are still learning the game. He launched an air assault at a unit of stormtroopers and valkyries on overwatch. Wasn't sure what happened there, since technically there was no engage move, but you can overwatch when something unloads troops, but then again they unload and immediately assault.

A formation that is on overwatch may choose to shoot
immediately after an enemy formation completes a move
or unloads troops, and before the target either shoots or
assaults.

We said I could overwatch anyway. I end up breaking his warband. Then what happens? Does he carry out the assault, or immediately withdraw?
He must immediately withdraw... but remember that during an air assault, the Landa and the Warband count as one formation for the purpose of how many Blast markers need to break them.

(Can't actually find the rule... but I know it's so!  *laugh*)

And what happens to the landa? Are move 0 war engines immediately destroyed if broken with 15cm, or do they just take a DC for each unit within 15?

Once landed, the aircraft is treated in all ways as a ground
unit with a speed of 0 (ie, it may not move)

And

A broken war engine is assumed to have a number of Blast
markers equal to its starting damage capacity for all rules
purposes. If there are any enemy units within 15cms of
the war engine after it makes a withdrawal then it suffers
one extra point of damage (no save allowed) for each
enemy unit that is within 15cms.

Which is different from:

If the
aircraft loses the assault it is destroyed, but any units that
have disembarked may withdraw normally.

Since the assault didn't actually take place.

Hope that helps!
Author:  Nicoch [ Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:30 am ]
Post subject:  I have no idea what happens in this situation.
Thanks.
Author:  Carrington [ Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:40 am ]
Post subject:  I have no idea what happens in this situation.
Ouch.  Dangers of the hot landing zone.
Author:  Dav [ Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:02 am ]
Post subject:  I have no idea what happens in this situation.
I'll say!
It was my landers he unleashed the valkyries on - it worked only as a sacrifical tactic. I assaulted it again (with an other landa!) and they broke, iirc.
That's how 350 points of troops held up 900 of mine (of which half never came back...).

I still haven't found a cost-effective solution against those valkyries - other than to wait in cover for them to unload their salvo, and only then move out... but that really doesn't sound that great.
Author:  Nicoch [ Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:26 am ]
Post subject:  I have no idea what happens in this situation.
They've actually got two volleys, Dav. :D

I only have to fire one rocket from each to get the 2 templates, leaving another in reserve.

Although surviving to do so is another matter entirely.
Author:  Ginger [ Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:07 pm ]
Post subject:  I have no idea what happens in this situation.
As the others have said, you move the Landa into position resolving any AA fire, then disembark the Stormboyz. At this point the OW fire is resolved and if the entire formation (Landa and StormBoyz) remains unbroken, then the assault takes place.

Usually, preping the target with some artillery or ground straffing will both suppress some of the OW shots and greatly assist the assault. In this case it will be harder to suppress the Valkyries because of the associated Stormtroopers. Remember that suppression works from the rearmost units forwards (see 1.9.2 suppressed units), so once you have inflicted a number of BMs on the formation, you need to make sure you assault the formation from the side that is opposite from the majority of the Valkyries. Even so, because of the dispersed nature of the formation (due to scout) at best you are likely to get a maximum of 4x BMs which will usually suppress a maximum of two Valkyries and two Stormtroopers, and the remaining 1-2x Valkyries and 6-8x stormtroopers are going to score a number of hits with their OW.

Even assuming slightly better than average hits, the remaining unsuppressed Valkyries and Stormtroopers shoul score ~4-5 AP hits, leaving you with ~6 Stormboyz and the Landa, ~8-9 points of formation Vs ~5 BMs. This does not break the assaulting formation, so the assault goes ahead (with a very good chance of wiping out the formation entirely except possibly the commisar).

This means that the Stormboyz assault should still take place against the Stormtroopers (as the skimming Valkyries pop-up).
Author:  Irondeath [ Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:23 pm ]
Post subject:  I have no idea what happens in this situation.
All said and done I´d argue that is is easier to use a Zzap Brigade or Fighta-Bommers to take out / break such a formation, and leave the Landa for more vulnerable targets..
Author:  markHargrave [ Fri Feb 13, 2009 1:09 pm ]
Post subject:  I have no idea what happens in this situation.
Can you shoot at the lander before it disembarks, not sure either way, for example if I had a shadow sword on overwatch I would be quite keen to be able to shoot at the landa with troops on board as I have a chance of destroying the lot of them.. I know you can with normal transports
Author:  Ginger [ Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:18 pm ]
Post subject:  I have no idea what happens in this situation.
As the Landa activates and moves through the battlefield, an enemy A/c formation already on CAP may engage it and it may also be shot at by ground AA. Once it has successfully landed and disembarked the troops, the formation may be shot at by enemy formations that are on OW. These are the only two ways that the formation can be shot at before the assault takes place.

If you have a SHT formation on OW that can see the Landa + troops (perhaps parked on a hill) then it may shoot at the Landa once it has landed and disembarked the troops, but the only way to destroy the Landa with the troops on board is via AA (ground or air).
Author:  nealhunt [ Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:51 pm ]
Post subject:  I have no idea what happens in this situation.
Quote: (markHargrave @ 13 Feb. 2009, 12:09 )

Can you shoot at the lander before it disembarks...

Nope.  A transport can be intercepted in the air as Ginger points out.  However, the unit has to complete a move to trigger OW.  The approach as aircraft was deemed to not be a move for that purpose; only ground moves count.  Disembarking triggers as normal, but obviously if they have disembarked you cannot catch the troops inside the transport.

Historically, the reason for this "ground move only" ruling was that IG Deathstrikes were the ultimate anti-air-assault defense.  No LOS required; unlimited range.  Drop them on OW and dare any air transport to come on board.

====

Dav:  I dread facing Vultures/Troopers with Orks - fast, good firepower and good FF make them a big threat for Orks.

As noted by others, Fightabommas will wreck Valkyries/Stormtroopers.  At 450 points for 9, they can brave a lot of flak.  Even if you assume 2 of them are shot down, that's 7 shots at AT4+.  If the IG player keeps the Stormtroopers loaded, they will likely die with the Valks.  If they unload them, then you add the FB's AP6 shots (AP5, but the Troopers will almost certainly be in cover).  Either way, you're likely to get 3+ kills.

Past FBs, the options get pretty limited pretty quickly.  If they are starting the game on OW, they must have been garrisoned, so you at least know where they will be.  Since Orks have some decent garrisons of their own, you might be able to snag them by deploying so you can reach them.

One option is a cheap sacrificial formation.  Throw a 220 point Stormboyz/2 Deth Kopta formation at them.  You can keep most of the units outside of 30cm, and you only need to have 1-2 of the Valks in range, so only those in range can use OW.  They can either blow their OW on a cheap formation (which can spread out quite far to minimize damage from barrages) or take the risk that a shot or two from the Deth Koptas will get lucky.

Another option is to hit them with a formation that can take the OW.  A Warband with Stompas/Dread/Kanz can garrison and lay down decent firepower.  If you can approach the Vultures in cover then they only hit on 5 for infantry and 6 for vehicles, and your infantry get cover saves.  Depending on the kinds of walkers, you might still be able to keep most of the units outside 30cm to minimize OW ability.  That 4-6BP barrage won't do a lot to slow down ~450 points of warband + walkers.  The Warband probably won't do much damage to the Valks, either, but it burns the OW and keeps the Troopers from activating.

Another option is to have a couple Zzaps or Soopaguns.  Since they can hit the Valks from well outside their OW range having just one or two Oddboyz will pretty much force the IG player to hide the Valks.  That prevents the Orks from killing them outright, but it also severely hinders their forward deployment and OW ability to help you deal with them.
Author:  Dav [ Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:34 pm ]
Post subject:  I have no idea what happens in this situation.
Thank you nealhunt... I think I'll have to fit more fighta-boomers in, then.
That's the orkish artillery I was looking for! :vo
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