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Multi-Formation Targeting |
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Ilushia
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Post subject: Multi-Formation Targeting  Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 5:39 am |
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Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 1189
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This one just kinda randomly occured to me earlier while going back to read over the Emperor thread. Some folks have voiced concerns over not being able to have larger Titans make back their own point costs (which is likely true!) And I was thinking of a way to make those 850 point titans look a little more appealing... So here's what I came up with:
War Engine formations undertaking a Sustained Fire action may target up to 2 formations. The war engine(s) must declare which weapon systems are firing at which enemy formation before making any rolls to hit. When undertaking such an action the usual +1 to-hit modifier is negated.
I don't know if it'd make War Engines too good. But I could see it being useful for a number of them. You'd be giving up the one real advantage of Sustained Fire in return for the ability to not 'waste fire' on units which you really don't want to fire on (No putting Volcano Cannon rounds into Infantry just because you want to shoot at their transports, for instance). I think it'd help with the viability of the very large war-engines in Epic, without seriously impacting the smaller ones, since they'd have to stand still in order to do this and usually have shorter ranges and worse armor.
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dptdexys
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Post subject: Multi-Formation Targeting Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 8:27 am |
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Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:39 pm
Posts: 1974
Location: South Yorkshire
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This has been asked about a few times (splitting fire) and will not happen but does not mean you cannot come up with house rules for it.
Not everything has to kill its points value in enemy units to be worthwhile( if this was the case no-one would have any models left at the end of a game).
Titans are worth their points not just by killing the enemy but by using them to prevent opponents from getting 3 of their 5 objectives (BTS,TSNP and DTF).
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nealhunt
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Post subject: Multi-Formation Targeting Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 6:21 pm |
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| Purestrain |
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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
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I have rarely seen any WE formation "waste fire." This concern seems to be almost entirely theoretical until you start looking at things like the Imperator and Megagargant. Even a Warlord Titan on Sustained Fire is hard pressed to wipe out any substantial formation entirely.
Putting aside the fact that a Warlord titan using sustained Fire is a tactical problem in itself, just for kicks, an 850 point Warlord titan on Sustained Fire averages just over 10 hits against an ideal target (LV/AV formation), one of which is probably TKd3. Virtually the only hits 'wasted' is if you have enough that the TK hit can be doubled up in allocation.
Let's just look at what that does to some ~300-400 point formations (relatively small ones in other words):
A damaged Big Kult of Speed with 12 remaining units. To overkill this formation it would have to hit with every single weapon AND the KoS would have to fail all its saves. Outside of that, every hit provides a potential kill.
Uge Blitz Brigade - 12 targets, every hit potentially valid.
4 Land Raiders. The Warlord on Sustained Fire "wastes" 2 hits on the doubled/tripled up TK target. Averages just ~3 kills but mostly due to strong saves even when hits are doubled up. Hardly a waste.
Damaged Russ company. Basically the same as LRs, just 1 less multi-hit on the TK target.
Warhound Titan - TK taken on the shields, 9 hits is only ~2 more than it would take on average for a kill. The extra makes it a near-guarantee but doesn't really "waste" them. And if you think it does, this is only a 250 point target.
Hive Tyrant and 6 Carnifexes (I couldn't resist). 1 multi-hit on the TK target. IF the formation is such that the Tyrant will be allocated 2 hits, the Tyrant still has ~50% chance to live. Otherwise a 75% chance it will live. If it lives it will have ~3 Carnifexes left alive with it. Definitely not overkill there.
Maybe against some of the SM and Tau armor formations that can have low numbers and modest armor you might argue that the Warlord wastes fire, but that's just about it.
It's basically a problem of perception, imho, not an issue in actual played games.
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Neal
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nealhunt
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Post subject: Multi-Formation Targeting Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 6:22 pm |
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| Purestrain |
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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
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Location: Nashville, TN, USA
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That said, I think the proposed rule would probably be just fine from a balance perspective.
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Neal
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Ilushia
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Post subject: Multi-Formation Targeting Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 8:03 pm |
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Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
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You're almost certainly right Neal. It's just an idea I kinda liked. The principle is that you give up your primary advantage of Sustained Fire in return for a different kind of advantage. I don't expect you to wind up 'wasting' fire very often with a Warlord, really. But for instance the Manta comes to mind in this pile. Mantas get 2x MW TK(D3) shots and 6x AP/AT shots. From what I've heard/seen part of why people don't usually take Warlords, Mantas, Phantoms, etc in smaller games is that they're just not very practical. You point them at an enemy formation and sure, they'll chew the heck out of it, but you usually wind up pointing some weapons which would be better pointed somewhere else at it. Volcano Cannon into a Land Speeder formation when there's a Warhound just a little ways away. I doubt it'd have huge impacts on the game in terms of unit abilities, I just thought it might make the prospect of fielding some of those really huge and expensive war-machines a bit more attractive.
Also: Thanks for the input Neal. I'm gonna try to pitch this one to the local gaming club and see how it runs, if it runs at all. The only places I see it being seriously abusive is when it comes to SHT companies (Especially Shadowswords) where you could potentially throw out lots of 2+ shots at two different targets.
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ragnarok
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Post subject: Multi-Formation Targeting Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 2:42 pm |
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Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:43 pm
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Location: Reading, England
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I think the simplest way for allowing split fire is if the target formations are intermingled. Then you count them as one big formation for hit allocation.
heck if a pair of leman russ companies are mixed you're not going to just shoot the ones with certain company markings, you will blaze away at the whole lot.
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Chroma
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Post subject: Multi-Formation Targeting Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 7:17 pm |
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Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
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Location: Montréal, QC, Canada
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| Quote (ragnarok @ 26 May 2006 (14:42)) | | I think the simplest way for allowing split fire is if the target formations are intermingled. ?Then you count them as one big formation for hit allocation. |
Now that is a fascinating approach... though, with Tau co-ordinated fire, it might get out of hand.
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Chroma
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Post subject: Multi-Formation Targeting Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 7:33 pm |
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| Brood Brother |
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Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
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Location: Montréal, QC, Canada
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| Quote (Hena @ 30 May 2006 (19:20)) | | Actually ragnarok, that's first type of splitting of fire that I might think is perhaps ok. Only thing is that it allows giving a large amount of BMs for free if many formations are bunched up. |
Not really any different from a well placed artillery barrage though...
My Blasta Gargant has suppressed the dickens out of bunched formations...
To say nothing of Manticores.
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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer
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Ilushia
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Post subject: Multi-Formation Targeting Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 10:25 pm |
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Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 1189
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I'd say that you only gain the BMs for coming under fire if you actually take a hit in that situation (beyond the first formation anyway). So, say, two Russ Companies, one with 7 tanks the other with 5. Company 2 would only recieve a 'coming under fire' marker if the enemy scored at least 8 hits, enough to hit the entire first company.
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Evil and Chaos
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Post subject: Multi-Formation Targeting Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 7:12 pm |
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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
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Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
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How about you can only allocate 1 'coming under fire' BM as normal, that formation being the one you send the majority of your shots at.
The secondary formation only recieves BM's from kills as normal.
On an equal amount of weapon shots, you chose in advance which formation will take the extra BM.
Just trying a method that allows you to stay as near as possible to the current mechanics.
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[ 11 posts ] |
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